DEVA TALK

Avid software version 10.5 has been released. As well as other
enhancements, this software directly reads Zaxcom Deva audio files
recorded on DVD-RAM, Jaz, external SCSI hard disk or any future SCSI
data storage device. This eliminates the process of loading audio into
the Avid in real time. Audio is now accessed directly from the Deva
recorded disk.
When a Zaxcom Cameo mixer is used on location with the Deva hard disk
audio recorder, scene, take and note are included with each take
recorded. This information is then automatically included in the
editing process. This eliminates the need for a written sound report.
Confusion regarding recorded tracks and notes from the on location
sound mixer have been eliminated.
New Zaxcom Cameo and Deva software allows for common user
programmable messages to be saved in cameo with a single mouse click.
This simplifies the sound mixers job as Scene, take and note can now
be easily entered and edited on location with the cameo after a scene
has been recorded.
Deva broadcast wave mono and polyphonic as well as 16 and 24 bit
files are all supported by AVID non-linear edit systems.
The post production chain is now completely streamlined for the use
of Zaxcom Deva generated disks. Direct use includes telecine,
non-linear picture editing and audio post. All processes benefiting
from time saving improved audio quality and 4-track recording.

Let me just say this, I only wish that I had had the Cameo when I was doing
Altman shows. I've used every combination of things to do his style of
shooting including making a huge patch panel to try and simplify the day to
day and scene to scene scramble as he 'made up' the next scene. I was the
one who moved him (with little enthusiasm from him) from the Stephens 1" 8
tracks to the 1/2" Otaris to the DA 88 and from the Audio Mixer to Sonosax
to PSC, a laborious journey. And all the time praying for something to come
along like the Cameo. That said, now every show I do, as seems to be
the case with MANY of you, becomes a potential "Altman" show. Up until the
Cameo, I would resist most opportunities to go multi-track, but not anymore.
This mixer is the first device since my studio days
that gives me that feeling of control and preciseness that I have
missed for so long. My experience with the PSC as well as
my Sonosax ( and I hear is also true for the Cooper) was that I had a
certain amount of bleed across channels at the inputs to my 8 track. This
problem was not always noticeable until the advent of the Audio Limited
wireless. The output of the Audio is so hot that audio was always present
on other channels and when the unit would squelch (as a xmtr would move in
and out of range, with the faders down) the 'fritzing' would make some
tracks unusable, especially during quiet moments. The same was always true
of music playback unless I brought its level down 15-20 db or so. On an
Altman show one never knows when these "moments" may occur which made the
bleed problem as bad or worse than the "print-thru" problems of the old
analog tape days. The Cameo completely, completely eliminates this entire
issue. So there.......

To the 360 TCR users, one note, the TCR unit does not as yet "mirror". You
can "export" files as SD II or WAV but you can only do this progressively
and one time overall to the DVD (no erasing or redos!). You cannot format
the DVD on the TCR except for TCR's proprietary system. This requires
either pre-formatted DVDs (I can't find those yet) or that you have, as I
do, a separate DVD burner just to format. ….The Cameo interfaces
perfectly with this unit. It is a good idea, however, if you record a show
on a daily basis, as you would the DEVA, that you have a SECOND machine to
provide to Transfer or to editorial to facilitate use of your DVDs.

I have no experience or knowledge of the Tascam unit. They make good stuff.

Just for the record, the Altman "method" of recording sound is very useful,
even essential if your director is unprepared or unwilling to plan how a
shot or how the dialogue is likely to go. Also the use of jib arms and zoom
lenses and their unpredictable views in conjunction with unplanned action
make the boom a very difficult tool to use indeed. 'Nuff said......

I LOVE this DEVA! Love it!!!

I spoke with a computer-chip-making-machine designer today (some extras'
dad) who tells me that in a very short time (under a year) we will have
memory chips capable of holding 4 gig at about the size of the average
thumbnail. Does this portend good news for the next stage of storage AFTER
DVD?? So far, DVD seems to be the only drawback to anyones' recording
systems (8 tracks of 48k/24 bit on the TCR takes 4 to 5 times real time).
If new devices are just around the corner, I'm sure Glenn will know. Thanks
again Glenn for keeping us in the vanguard of audio tech!!!
John Pritchett

John,
Great Post! I guess Altman was a few years ahead of his time. I can't
imagine doing what you did when you did it with the gear that was available….Thanks too for the info on the TCR8. It would still be feasible for me
since I would only use it on 'big' scenes. But the thought of having to
wait until the end of the day before copying to the DVD is a bit off
putting. A number of folks have been recommending the Tascam, so it might
be the way to go.

Tascam has just announced the MX2424 SE which they refer to as their "post"
model; it ships with an 18 gb hard drive in the front drive bay, a
Kingston-style removable drive carrier. This is a plug and play scenario for
any ProTools setup --- this is what it was designed for. On the "big" scenes
you refer to, it would be no problem to have a ProTools setup standing by
back at the studio for whatever sort of transfers needed to be made. If the
material is not needed immediately from you, the Tascam has a SCSI bus and
you could make a backup protection copy to some other media and still turn
in the hard drive.

"I wouldn't mind the 20 <> 16 bits so much, the 2 instead of 4 tracks, that would bother me…."

Why doesn't the jump from 20 bit to 16 bit bother you? That is where you
see the greatest improvement in quality and dynamic range. The difference
between 20 and 24 bit is not nearly as great because we are getting past the
capabilities of the microphones. The difference between 16 and 20 is
quantitative, the difference between 20 and 24 (and 48K and 96K) is more
qualitative.

As for forcing editors to upgrade in order to handle the format that 'I want
to deliver'. Possibly it's a subtlety in your (usually) excellent use of
English, but it seems here that you are implying that I'm being a little
obstinate in forcing the editors to use a format needlessly. Actually, if
the editors use their Avid's as it was originally designed, to do picture
edits and create EDL's, there is no problem, they can load the sound off the
digibeta (or VHS, or DAT, or whatever), as long as it is for their work
print only. Unfortunately, some are trying to use older Avid's to do
sub-mixes and in some cases the full mix. In that case they need to upgrade
to appropriate hardware. They'll get little sympathy from me if they don't.
As I mentioned over a year ago. I sat in on a mix where the picture editor
had sub-mixed a shot and used the wrong track of a 2 track DAT for a
character's close-up. They looped the actress for an interior close-up
instead of going back to the original DAT. On top of that there are often
phasing problems in the picture post chain. I have no idea why picture
editors are getting so aggressive in doing sub mixes. They often don't know
what they are doing and create problems down the line.

Billy Sarokin

There are many post systems at play right now, and many versions of those systems.
The Deva writes standard SD2 and BWF files. Some of the post systems have
difficulty handling files that they did not create. I own a Pro Tools 001
system. It cannot read files written on Pro Tools SD2 format. Fortunately,
the post Pro Tools systems handle Deva DVD's without difficulty (as long as
you are set up correctly and are using a DOS Mounter to read the DVD's). As
for Avid, the new system takes Deva into account. The older versions have
problems with 24 bit. That is because they are older systems. I had a 16
bit Spectral DAW. I got rid of it because it wasn't upgradeable to 24 bit.
There are still many 16 bit Avid's in use. The current state of audio
recording has moved past the capabilities of the older Avids. In light of
that editors have 3 choices.

1) They can upgrade their Avids (why not, we upgrade our gear all the time
and probably get paid less for it)
2) They can use Pro Tools for the sound edit and leave the Avid for picture
and scratch track only.
3) They can take the 4 track Deva DVD's, throw away 2 of the tracks and 8 of
the bits and squeeze what is left into the Avid.

It seems that many editors are taking the third option. That doesn't
reflect on us and our use of the Deva (or Nagra D). It reflects on them.

The Deva also has RS422 Sony Protocol control. Any of these systems can use
the Deva itself as the playback machine. Though one of the reasons for
using the Deva is to avoid needing a 2nd machine for playback, but if a post
house has problems handling the DVD's they can always go out and rent or
purchase a Deva. If there are machine specific problems, Zaxcom customer
service is exemplary. If it was a problem on the Deva's side I'm sure Glenn
would have a software fix within a day or 2. So far I haven't run across
those problems.

What I can't figure out is why post wasn't complaining about this when I
used the Nagra D. Then they had to go out and rent a D for the entire
length of the production so they could do the sound transfers and then they
had to rent a Deva in post anytime they wanted to do a re-transfer. My
reason for switching to the Deva was that I could hand them a DVD which is
readable in almost any system built within the last 10 years. Try it your
self. Take a Deva DVD and pop it into you PC. You'll see a file directory.
If you click on a file (and have a 24 bit sound card) you'll hear the take.
If you want, I'll be happy to send you a recorded DVD. I am losing patience
with post houses that say it can't be done, or it's too difficult, or it
will take longer, or 24 bits is a waste, or 4 tracks is too many. We
survive in the field when the snow is falling, the wind is blowing, the
equipment is breaking and the actors are whispering, and we still give them
a good track. Somehow their problems do not seem as insurmountable as they
make them seem.

My last few post experiences have been excellent.

BTW, regarding what you quoted, "This Support includes bin view display of
time code, shoot date, scene,
take and text comments". On my last film I didn't think anyone would ever
see the scene and comment info, so I never used them except on ocassion when
I would type in a joke relating to our shooting day because the text would
show up on the Cameo display for all the sharp eyed people over my shoulder
to see. Anyway, when Skywalker Sound loaded in all the DVD's the sound
supervisor commented that he wished I had used those capabilities. He
didn't think it worked either but every now and then he'd see my humerous
comments pop up on the screen and couldn't figure out where they came from.
Billy Sarokin

And on that note -- I've been trying to get a DEVA (which I learned
to love on "Kate & Leopold") on Sopranos since last season. By the way, Todd-AO, where we cut sound and
remix, is fine with it.

I assured them that it's not 4 tracks all the time, but only on an as-
need basis. In which case I'd really need it. They kept saying to
me that they didn't really want to tie my hands in what I do, so I
turned it around and told them that mixing everything to mono (or
limited split tracks) would actually limit THEIR flexibility and
that, since they split dialogue tracks anyway, and have to create
sync background car-bys, I could possibly save them time, etc. etc.
The final result is that from not wanting to deal with 4 tracks, now
I'm actually going to record on up to SIX tracks (2 on the Nagra and
4 on the DEVA). Be careful what you wish for, huh?

On Kate & Leopold the DVD was my primary media and the Nagra 1/4" was
my backup.
Coffey, Sanders and I are working on it and the picture editor only
wants one track (I always do a mono mix to track one anyway), or two
if it's necessary (eg., two different camera angles, audio from a
video playback source), the compromise is that the 1/4" goes to RIOT
for transfer direct into the AVID and for dailies, but all the DVDs
go straight to the sound department with as many tracks as I want.
They did ask that I mirror my mono mix onto track one of the DEVA,
although I could use that track also for discrete material if I need
it.
Mathew Price, CAS

From: Jeff Wexler
Subject: Re: DigiRF / DEVA in Post

It is amazing how some of the post houses and even the productions react to
our efforts to improve many aspects of the whole process, better quality
audio, more flexibility, saving time, saving money and so forth. When
Matchframe (a really progressive post house here in L.A. that pioneered a
lot of the non-linear procedures now used by many post houses now) developed
techniques and procedures using the Deva in telecine, they could cut the
time down in telecine (and thus the cost of sessions) by almost 25% in many
cases. Lots of people said why would Matchframe advertise this --- they are
already booked solid doing x number of sessions? Matchframe did use these
new methods to increase their business, get more clients (all of the clients
were pleased with saving money on the sessions) and ultimately, Matchframe
increased their overall business and made an even better name for themselves
in the industry (and in some markets they had not even been previously
servicing like the feature film editorial departments that were NOT getting
the service they needed with the new technology from the older established
studio procedures). Todd-AO here did not really aggressively go after
servicing non-linear daily jobs until I made some waves in pre-production on
a picture that I was going to send the stuff to a "video post house"
(Matchframe) if Todd-AO couldn't handle the stuff.

Keep up the good work, Mathew, we all have to try and keep moving everyone
forward, particularly when it can make all of our working lives better and
improve the quality of these productions.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

I explained the time-saving features to one of the hot telecine
places here in Boston and they flat said to me, "Why would we want to
do -that-?"

The answer is this: The next dramatic film I did [Murder at Harvard,
American Experience (PBS)] completely cut telecine sound out of the
loop and synched every inch of sound in the Avid, from DVD RAM
mirrors I made along the way. Obviously everybody's not going to do
that, but the pie is changing shape, and post houses have the chance
now to help define the piece of it they'll get, or they can watch as
others define it for them.
John

Well said, John. This is exactly why I referred to Matchframe as a
"progressive" post house --- they completely understood the changing
landscape and were enthusiastic about playing a role in defining the future.
Regards, Jeff Wexler

Deva has been performing well in extremely bad conditions . On this job we
are shooting HDTV and Im utilizing the 'auto load' function of the Deva so
the camera's can be in 'record run' and have matching t.c. with the Deva.
This is working very well. Since I'm not required to send in a DVD every
day for rushes Im filling up each partition mirroring as I go and sending
it to the sound post people as I complete each DVD disk.

the post production people on our show seem to really love the
DVD we provide via the DEVA. Any learning curve problems we had at first
have all resolved and we operating smoothly. As luck would have it, we
ended up using plain old 29.97 code and to our syncing at Laser Pacific for
the Avid flex files.
Thanks for your continued support.
John Pritchett

I have not met a single telecine operator who did not say the process was
faster than using DAT or Nagra!!! One of the great joys of my pathetic
life is to go to telecine the first time Deva is being used and watch
the face of the skeptical telecine operator light up when he realizes
for the first time, he will get to go home before the sun comes up.
(You will have to pry a Deva out of their cold dead hands when that Deva
show ends and they go back to Nagra and DAT again.)

A 1 frame used in telecine. That is no problem at all for
the operator who just makes that adjustment at the beginning of the
session once, hooks up to the RS-422 controller and is off and running.

A one second offset is nothing. With a Nagra, the offset is 4 frames!
I'm not sure about DAT, but DAT has a even bigger slow down problem when
there is not enough pre-roll every so often (it even makes me blush to
hear the cuss words they have for the production sound mixer).

So most sessions have several instances where the production sound mixer
did not roll enough pre-roll and DAT is very time consuming to hand
sync, even to the degree that some telecinists prefer Nagra to DAT for
just that reason alone. Obviously Deva's 10 second pre-roll handles
that problem.

So back to a typical tv telecine session, it goes like this:
The telecinist readies the DVD to a Deva Post machine, Tascam MMR-8 or
Deva connected to a DVD. He then rolls the film up to the slate,
freezes the picture, types in the time code seen on the slate, presses
the RS-422 controller key and within 1 second, picture and sound are
happily locked up and being laid down together. This process repeats
itself every take unless aaton is properly used, then it would all
happen automatically.

I have never met a telecine operator that was not overjoyed at
using Deva compared to DAT or Nagra.

John Coffey
http//:www.coffeysound.com

THE NAGRA V AND ORB DRIVES:

With all this talk of the need for reliability when using non-linear recorders in the field, I think there should be a frank discussion on the viability of the ORB drive as a primary recording medium for recording audio under the difficult field environments we often encounter.

About 3 years ago, I looked hard at the Orb drives as an answer to turn in Deva recordings. Our trials with Jaz media had failed miserably in the field and I badly wanted the Orbs to succeed because there was no alternative to rotating Deva drives. Jeff Wexler and Coffey Sound were hopeful and both conducted tests which were unsatisfactory for field recording. We simply had too many failures and therefore decided not to use it.

We found no better alternative to rotating Deva drives until the advent of less expensive DVD RAM media.

So I was very surprised to see that Nagra V had selected the Orb drive for their new recorder. Are there not obvious shortcomings to this medium that should be explored?

The Orb drive states limits that it can’t perform in all conditions typical of our needs. The temperature range of this drive is not specified below 50 degrees fahrenheight. While Nagra has claimed that their tests show that the drive exceeds these specifications, can the drive can be guaranteed to do it under all conditions?

Will the drive specifications degrade after used for a period of time? If the drive always preformed as Nagra claims, why don’t the Castlewood specifications would reflect it?

The stated humidity range is not suitable for our application. Castlewood clearly states a minimum and maximum humidity range that Orb can be easily exceeded in the field. This is a key difference between the type of hard disk used by the Deva and a removable backup media system. Hard drives like the one used
in the Deva are sealed to keep out humidity and dust. The ORB drive is not.

The motion rating is only 8 g. Is this not so low that a good bump can cause a problem? While Nagra is claiming a ram buffer will capture the audio while
the motion is taking place. If the heads come in contact with the media, will the ram buffer not matter if the media will be ruined as well as the drive?

Does the Nagra V also have an internal drive or if there is a problem in the field, will the unit then be down until the drive can be replaced? In comparison, the Deva disk can withstand over 100g’s of force while operating. If there is a problem the Deva’s drive can be immediately replaced. Of course there is no need to do this quickly, as the internal disk will record for several days without any external disk.

Is the ORB drive simply meant to be a low cost consumer back-up disk? Is it acceptable for our use? The track record of this disk in a controlled environment, that we have personally seen, had not been good enough for use with Deva, let alone the extreme conditions that we must endure.

DVD-RAM has come to be a standard for our industry. It is half the price of Orb media and so far shown us to be fairly reliable and can be used for later downloads where conditions are unstable.

As Nagra is claiming that the drive is suitable for our application and Castlewood (the manufacturer of the drive) clearly states that the drive does not perform under these conditions, who is responsible if problems occur? Is Nagra going to pay for any charges associated with loss of material by claiming that this drive is suitable?

At least DAT was originally designed to be used in cars so there was some attention paid to the considerations of temperature , motion and humidity. Wasn’t the Orb drive designed to be used in motionless, temperature and humidity controlled environment while in use?

If ORB was proposed by any other manufacturer, I think
we would be asking a lot more questions. Since it is Nagra, there seems to be less concern about these issues. On at least one sound mixer’s group, a Nagra representative said he would answer the questions privately. Fostex and Deva have been held to public scrutiny on these groups and both have answered many questions publicly. We all know that Nagra had an excellent history with analog recorders, but questions remain about the non-linear Nagra V. It would be nice if they publicly addressed these issues so we all can be assured it will work properly under the stress of recording sound in the field.

______________________________________________

Granted. In my situation (mostly on a sound cart), the external
device is not a problem. Though I often go 'handheld' for over the
shoulder or car shots. At those times I appreciate the Deva's
diminutive size. But you are correct, I do have to hook up the
external drive after the fact and mirror to DVD.

> The average specs of a ( Panasonic, Hitachi ) DVDRAM recorder are
> for Office & home use. Another problem is the slow Write speed.
> And i know that you can make mirrors in your home/hotel, but thats not
> what i'm thinking of.

True, faster is better. Though the way I use the Deva/DVD, the
mirroring speed is rarely an issue. A few times the mirroring turned
off without my noticing until wrap. That has cost me 15-20 minutes at
times. The solution has just been to train myself to keep an eye on
the mirroring process. It's just part of the learning curve when
switching the a non-linear system.
>
> If the Deva used IDE HD's , containing sd2 or bwf, loaded in a
> Kingston carrier, that would solve already a lot. But, according to
> what mister Glenn S. wrote here, the internal deva-fomat is safer.
> And i guess the Studio-deva ( that was announced here ) is made to use
> these internal HD's, to have the possiblility to read the Deva format
> disks, and skip the DVD RAM way.

Correct. The Deva writes to it's hard drive in a simple
proprietary format. It then mirrors to the DVD in either BWF or SD2,
16 or 24 bit. As Glenn mentioned, he chose a simple dedicated format
to make the data as bullit proof as possible. I believe he has
succeeded.

I believe you can do this now with the Deva by using an external
SCSI drive. I believe fire wire is a future possibility, but for now
an external HD can be connected to the SCSI port. I do not know if
the drive would have to be pre formatted as either a MAC or DOS
drive.... Glenn...? There is one consideration. If you are only
writing to a hard drive and handing that hard drive off to post AND it
is in a DOS or MAc format. If the drive crashes (which all will
eventually) it can be much harder and time consuming to recover the
audio files.

> My main point is, is this the best the manufacturers can come up
> with..and I mean all of them?

I think the Deva is the best. Nagra has entered the fray and
Fostex is on the way. Even though those two have 4 years of
tecnological advances to incorporate in their machines, form what I've
seen and heard at this point, I don't think they have improved on the
Deva.

regards,
Billy Sarokin

I did get a
phone call today from a post supervisor at Skywalker Sound that lifted my
spirits.

I did a film in the spring called 'The Palace Thief' starring Kevin Kline.
As with most of my projects I recorded on both the DEVA and a DAT. The post
team had not been hired when production started so I flipped a coin and
settled on BWF/WAV files at 24 bit for the DVD format. The DAT was used for
dailies and I was hopeful that the DVD would be used for the sound edit. As
it turns out, Skywalker is a Pro Tools house, so life would have been
simpler if I mirrored with SD2 files, but as it was they were able to
convert the BWF files after a day of fiddling around. They reconformed the
sound for the entire film. I asked if it was worth the extra effort...

Pregnant pause....

The answer was an enthusiastic yes. The post supervisor was skeptical at
first. He told me he didn't think dialog would improve much at 24 bit, but
he said the difference over the DAT was phenomenal. They also made
extensive use of the additional tracks. He said they loved the speed and
convenience of the 'drag and drop' aspect. Overerall they were thrilled.
Their only request was in dealing with the headers. They requested that I
name each Hard Drive partition with the current sound roll number (which is
easily done).

I asked the specifics of how they handled the DVD's. Did they play back
with a Deva? Akai? Tascam?
All they used was a Panasonic SCSI DVD-RAM (their firewire drive didn't
work) drive hooked up to the Pro Tools with a program called 'DOS Mounter'.
They used a 2nd program, 'Sample Search' to convert the BWF files to SD2
(which would have been unnecessary if I wrote SD2 to begin with).

There are 3 reasons I purchased the Deva; better sound quality, additional
tracks, and more flexibility and speed in post. From what the folks at
Skywalker said today it looks like Deva is quickly coming into its own.

Hope everyone's doing OK.
Billy Sarokin

Actually, I was very impressed with the guys at Skywalker and they sounded
> VERY enthusiastic about the 24 bit DVD's. It took them a day to get the
> system working so I thought when I asked them if it was worth it that I
> would get a , 'you know Billy, I couldn't hear any difference.... and it's
> no faster than the DAT....' The actual response was the polar opposite.
> Billy Sarokin

Billy:
I love to hear all this because for me, the 16 bit / 24 bit, DAT / DEVA
debate has always been the last thing I think about when discussing the use
of the DEVA. The 16 bit / 24 bit debate has always been on the back burner
because I still feel that the bit rate is one of the least significant
factors in determining what is "good movie sound." I am just sort of a
technical reactionary when it comes to this as I continue to pursue the
principle that it's THE PEOPLE that matter first and the equipment is always
second.

I am very pleased, however, that the good people at Skywalker have validated
that 24 bit is better than 16 bit, non-linear is better and faster than
linear, and all the things we have been saying all along.
Regards, Jeff Wexler

Deva has been performing well in extremely bad conditions . On this job we
are shooting HDTV and Im utilizing the 'auto load' function of the Deva so
the camera's can be in 'record run' and have matching t.c. with the Deva.
This is working very well. Since I'm not required to send in a DVD every
day for rushes Im filling up each partition mirroring as I go and sending
it to the sound post people as I complete each DVD disk

William Sarokin wrote:

> To add to the fun, often different systems are used on the same film.
> Sometimes within the same departments. The picture editor might use
> Avid, the sound editor Protools, the dialog editor a third system.
> I'd love to see the electronic post production version of RAMPS.
> Billy Sarokin

The Deva can write either 16 or 24 bit to the DVD's in either SD2 or BWF/WAV format.

As for 16/24 bit. Currently Avid's are 16 bit, though I hear that will change soon. But Pro Tools and many of the other Work Stations the sound editors use can work in either 16 or 24 bit. We don't want to limit our work because of the limitations of the picture editor's system. Do we?

Billy

Good point, Billy. We are all in favor of making the whole process work, and it is a good thing that Avid is finally getting it together, but we need to remember that the Avid is a picture editing system and it is only very recently that people have started to treat the Avid as THE machine that will do everything. In the old days, work print was work print and work track was just that, WORK track. Now, because everything is "digital" and all sounds okay to various people involved, work track has become THE track.

The goal, from a technical standpoint, will be that ALL those systems and individuals who have to deal with the soundtrack will be dealing with the SAME bit (pun intended) of sound. This will make everyone’s job a little easier and will make for better sounding projects. This is the primary promise, not yet fully realized, of the move to non-linear file based sound recording (with recorders like the DEVA) and away from linear, analog tape based systems.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

There is no need for 2 DVD's. If you feed 24 bit data into a 16 bit
system it just lops off the 4 least significant bits. I do it all the
time when feeding my DAT for dailies. Any artifacts are minute (much
much less than tape noise in the analog days).

As for the discussion of preparing tracks for the picture editor
(Avid) or the sound editor (Pro Tools, etc), this is precisely why I
switched from the Nagra D to the Deva. You want to encourage the
sound editors to start from scratch. Often the picture editors are
premixing sound for their workprints and the sound editors are getting
this premix as the original. Most of the better sound editors go back
to the original tracks and reconform. (Actually, most of the better
sound editors on film projects. The TV guys are stuck with the
picture editor's, or maybe the picture editor's assistant's, premix
because of lack of time). When I used the Nagra D, reconforming was a
big ordeal. They had to get the transfer house to re-rent the D and
then let the linear tapes shuttle back and forth endlessly. With the
Deva, there is no reason why every workstation should not have a
DVD-RAM drive. The drives themselves cost less than $500 and now
there are DVD-RAM reader drives for $150!! So everyone at every stage
can load in what they need in a non-linear fashion.

It seems strange for a field mixer to choose his/her equipment based
on what is easier for post, but the above discovery just started the
process for me. When I looked more closely at the Deva I felt it was
smaller, lighter, less power hungry, had more facilities, and sounded
as good as the D.
Billy Sarokin

"You mean that you feed a 24 bit cameo signal to the 16 bit DAT that runs at the same time ?"

Yes, I'm using the Cameo set at 24 bit. I feed both the Deva and the DAT. On a couple of the films I worked with the D they burned MO Disks of
the circled takes, not the entire tape rolls. In post, no one had MO
drives, so they had to call back to the transfer house to have takes
transferred to DAT. Only on one film did the sound editor rent a D
for the entire process. Mostly, sound editors were using my mono mix
from dailies and only very rarely looking at the other tracks.
Usually they would transfer the select takes from the mono mix and
that was they end of the Nagra D work. After seeing that happen on 3
productions I gave up. Also, here I was unsuccessful in getting the
D on tv productions. Not so with the Deva. It seems to be catching
on here in post.

I do miss the Nagra software. Hopefully someone will write a program
to do the same with the Deva using a PDA instead of a laptop.

Also, it didn't happen often, but on ocassion I would get calls from
the transfer house saying there was digital dropout on the D tapes.
That has never happened with my Deva. If it did I could easily
retransfer takes from the Hard Drive. I use 4 30 gig drives which
gives me 28 shooting days worth of backup. This summer they are
coming out with 48 gig drives which will give me 12 days per drive.

I enjoyed working with the D very much. It certainly looks more
impressive than the Deva. I'm sure the mic pres in the Nagra are
better (though I never tested them back to back), but it's a moot
point for me because I use the Cameo and feed a digital in to
whichever machine I'm using, so the recording deck is essentially just
a big storage device.
"I'm very curious what Fostex , HHB, and Nagra will come up with…"
From what I've seen of the Nagra 5 I think they missed the boat again.

All the best.
Billy Sarokin

(From what I've seen of the Nagra 5 I think they missed the boat again.)
> And why if i may ask ?

Hi,
1)Only 2 tracks
2) For some god unknown reason they're using 5.25" hard drives instead
of laptop harddrives (which are made to withstand greater stresses
than the larger drives)
3) There is no medium to hand off at the end of the day, you have to
give them the harddrive

Zaxcom has set the standard by using removable drives and a clever
mirroring scheme to make DVD's. If you want to improve on the Deva
the only way is to put the removable drive and the DVD in one 'over
the shoulder' unit. You must have both. A hard drive alone is
impractical (that is why I originally purchased a Nagra D instead of
the Deva 4 years ago) and a DVD alone is too risky. Another
possibility is having a very large capacity non-removable hd (the new
IBM's are 48 gigs) in a box along with the DVD. Hopefully that is
what Fostex is coming out with (though according to rumour their
machine will be DVD only).

The Deva is not perfect, but it has been out for more than 4 years and
so far no one has come out with a competing machine. The only other
DVD/Hard Drive combo machine in use is the 360 Systems TSR8. It has 8
tracks which is nice but it is the size of a Volkswagon.

See you,
Billy Sarokin

Jeff Wexler comments:

I believe Nagra has missed the boat as well, but there is some
mis-information above, to the best of my knowledge, that needs to be
corrected. The Nagra V uses ONLY removable storage in the form of Castlewood
Systems ORB disks. There is some concern from those of us who have had a
fair amount of experience with ORB technology, that it is not reliable
enough to be the primary recording medium, there are some
environmental/mechanical concerns for a recorder that needs to be "over the
shoulder" capable, etc.

There is a medium to hand off at the end of the day, the ORB disk, and this
is a good thing, superior to the DEVA method of having to make a transfer,
but this is also a liability, as mentioned above.

At this point in time, I believe that recording to a hard drive is the only
way to achieve the sort of absolute reliability that we have had with the
DEVA, and without turning in the hard drive (which is possible with the
DEVA), some transfer (mirror) to a secondary medium is necessary (DVD-RAM at
this point is the best choice).

I think Fostex will be a great recorder but won't be released till next
year.

As for the long awaited Nagra V. I hate to see it married to one media
when post may want DVD or the next generation of super storage memory
sticks or whatever the media du jour becomes.

Already, in just the last few years we have seen analog and DAT tape,
mo, CD, Jaz, DVD etc. Like it or not, post or producers often dictate
what you will use. DVD is quickly becoming the accepted standard due to
it's superiority and broad range of use, from the consumer (who always
are ahead of us) to professional (who is always slow to change).

Media not important? Send in a $70 MO recorded media to post and see
what they say if they don't own an MO. See what the producer says when
he gets the bill?

Post works with DVDs all the time and top sound quality is preserved
easily on $17, 2.6 gig DVD media. That price is going down all the
time and expected to approach blank CD costs someday of well below $5.

Media matters.

The Deva is versatile and can use most medias including ORB drives too,
IF they should miraculously become the media of choice in post.

John Coffey

It is not in the slightest bit unusual to have a film being cut on avid,
dialogues cut on audiofile, effects & music on pro-tools, and foley on
Akai DD8. I'd love to see a PostPro version of RAMPS, but maybe bacause
the majority of us post guys don't buy our own equipment then the
debates over new tech (i.e. DEVA) wouldn't get nearly as heated as they
do here.

While I'm here, I would just point out that the way AMS AudioFile
conforms audio from an EDL means that DEVA is an absolute blessing -
once the DEVA files have been transferred across to an AudioFile hard
drive, (25x) the system can conform them instantly into a usable event
list for editing. All the pain of autoconform, gone. I can't wait for
it to be a more established machine here in the UK.

--
Jerome O'Donohoe, Re-recording Mixer, Soho, London.

the DD8 or DD1500 can do this "conform from disk" too. i heared that some
productions do a same-time-transfer into the avid and to a DD8 in rushes
mode. each dat goes to a new akai project. and can be easily conformed from
audio EDLs in a few seconds.

since the DD8 can read deva and export to other formats, you could just
export to an AKAI format, conform from disk there and then convert to your
favorite DAW.
in this way you could by-pass the 16bit needle hole in the avid and have you
24bit files on the dubber plus another backup.

frank.

Disk Recorder discussion

Four years ago when we first introduced the Deva. I had to undergo a immense amount of scrutiny by the sound community some of whom told me in public that I was completely wrong in thinking that the Deva would ever be a serious recorder for production sound.

Of course now it all seems sort of surreal to me now. However maybe it is because Zaxcom opened the door and proved that this type of product was more than just a good idea it was a practical idea if properly implemented.

Now that other manufactures are gearing up to market "Deva" like recorders I feel it is important to highlight the things we did to make the Deva robust enough to make it in the big leagues and to highlight things we stayed away from and why.

1 Deva records directly to a hard disk.

Recording to a hard disk with 150g shock protection while operating was mandatory. The Deva had to be 10 times better than anything that had come before or people would be scared that motion would be a problem. A hard disk also provides immunity to humidity and dust.

2 Deva could not have an Imbedded PC.

All software had to be under our control. This allows for things like power to be removed in the middle of a recording without the loss of any recorded material. We also could not use a standard directory structure on our internal disk, as none of the PC type directory systems are robust enough to do the job. Deva uses 3 directories on the disk. Two are used for redundancy and the third is embedded in the recorded audio files that allow a directory to always be accessed as long as the audio is on the disk. Deva can also play the audio on the disk without any directory at all.

3 The disk must be removable.

Any failure of the disk cannot make the Deva inoperable. As such the disk drive can be replaced in seconds.

4 Deva had to be media independent.

The backup drive cannot be an integral part of the Deva. Backup media changes every year. If Deva used an internal Drive it would soon be obsolete. By making the backup drive a separate device the Deva should be useful 10 years from now.

5 Deva had to be 4 channels.

While the world was 2 channel we knew that 4 channels were needed for the coming surround television world and for greater use of multitrack recording in motion picture.

6 Dual disk recording was mandatory.

Using a hard disk for primary recording and a good backup type medium like DVD-RAM was the only way to guarantee the integrity of the audio. Using this system, Deva could record in all conditions and yet provide a low cost archive medium. Recording on 2 disks at the same time also provides an instant backup in the case of a rare failure of the internal hard drive.

Why we stayed away from consumer type backup disks for primary recording.

The answer to this has many facets. These disks have extreme sensitivity to motion. For example the ORB drive is rated for only 8g of force while operating. This type of force is very easy to obtain while on a moving sound cart or over the shoulder. This precludes use of this type of drive. Drives of this type will quickly fail in portable location operation and as such are not suitable for location recording.

Humidity: These drives can not operate in high humidity. The orb drive for example can not operate in over 80% humidity. This limits its use to indoors only or sunny weather conditions. Use around fog machines would be impossible. Condensation on the media can destroy the drive and the media.

Temperature. ORB drives are not rated to operate lower than 10 degrees C.

Media: use as a primary recording disk is not advisable as the media is not certified error free. The recorder would have to write the data to the drive read it back and then deal with it again if the media is bad. Practically there is no way to guarantee a perfect recording.

My point to all this is that I hope that the other manufactures that are getting ready to make "Deva like products" will be asked the same questions that we were and are put under the same microscope. I hope they do not escape this because we now make it look easy or because they have track records with other types of recording technology. While I can not be impartial in all of this I raise the questions because I have the direct experience. I wish my competitors well and other Deva like recorders in the market will only help to open more doors in post and a greater acceptance of the format.

Glenn

DEVA:

> For those of you fortunate enough to own DEVA recorders, how often do you
> use them on commercials? Most of what I've read and heard thus far points to
> the DEVA being used primarily on features, episodic and to a lesser extent,
> docs. Am I wrong in thinking that not many commercials are being recorded
> with a DEVA? If that's true, is it because producers resist the idea?

Jeff Wexler replies:
To the best of my knowledge, the DEVA has not made real inroads into the
commercial spot market (in production) but is gaining some headway in the
L.A. Area primarily by the efforts of Robert Gravenor. So far, reactions
have been very positive by all of those people involved. There are a number
of reasons for this rather slow adoption of this new way of working (and
many of these echo the rather slow adoption, and even exclusion of, DAT in
the commercial world). As we all know, once the commercial world settled on
a certain procedure for commercial production, Nagra 4-STC, center track
time code on 1/4", "smart" slates, etc., everyone had to do it that way or
you didn't do it at all. Many commercials shoot all over the country (and
all over the world for that matter) but the post work is almost always done
at home base, which was usually Los Angeles, Chicago or New York. It was
vital for this whole system to function properly for the production team
(camera, sound) to deliver at the end of the day, exactly the industry
standard media and format that was in use at 99% of the facilities. The DEVA
(and any other not yet standardized format or form factor) would always be
at a disadvantage and it would be difficult to turn in any material other
than 1/4" analog linear center track timecode tape at the end of the day. As
DAT gained acceptance (primarily in the feature film world) it moved into
the commercial world as a viable alternative to Nagra 4-STC tapes.
>
> This might be somewhat of a sensitive question, but I'm curious if after
> purchasing a DEVA, how much (if at all) did any of you raise your package
> rate to reflect the high cost of such a recorder?

No one should in all conscience raise their package rate because the DEVA is
actually a lower priced item than any of the other recorders in use. There
are a few who did try to raise the rates when DAT came in (because it is
"digital") but this too was not in accordance with rental rates being based
on the cost of the equipment because the cost of a DAT recorder was almost
always less than the cost of the Nagra recorder it was to replace.
>
> Do most of you find that producers like the DEVA after they become familiar
> with it and the benifits it can offer? Is it an uphill battle initially? Do
> producers even care at all?

Most producers do not care as long as it all works and doesn't cost them any
more money or time (the only two things that most producers care about).
Typically, in my experience, the use of the DEVA results in both time and
money savings. There are producers, however, who are quite interested in the
"tools of the trade" and are quite knowledgeable of the systems that have
been employed thus far. These people are usually very interested in the new
machines and new procedures and almost always feel very good that they are
involved in something new and progressive.
>
> Although I attempted to follow the previous discussion on this subject as
> carefully as possible, I'm still a little unclear about the functionality of
> DVDs mirrored on the cart. If a DVD is created from the DEVA hard disc, can
> it be submitted to ANY post/transfer house for use as a DIRECT SUBSTITUTE to
> a DAT cassette?

This is essentially the case providing the post/transfer house is equipped
to accept the DVD-RAM disk as the master recording. In the early days of DAT
it was the same situation. If you turned in a DAT cassette to a facility
that did not have a DAT machine (I know some of the newbies have trouble
imagining this) they would not be able to accept it.

>If not, why is this and when will it be widely possible. For
> those of you doing substantial DEVA work, what is the established (or
> immerging) protocol for submitting a days work? Submitting hard discs?
> Submitting hard discs and DVD's? Submitting only DVD's? Are large amounts of
> coordination and communication (more than usual) with post/transfer people
> required before doing DEVA work?

The standard protocol now seems to have settled in on turning in the DVD-RAM
disk only (typically along with any backup recording if so requested or
desired). Large amounts of coordination and communication are completely
unnecessary if you are dealing with a post/transfer facility that has
already done DEVA work. In this case, one simple conversation prior to
production, as I do always anyway, is sufficient. When dealing with a
production that has decided to use a facility that has had no experience
with the DEVA, large amounts of coordination and communication are
definitely necessary.
>
> Is it known if anyone has EVER, under ANY circumstances, lost a audio file
> on a DEVA due to some type of machine/software/HD malfunction whatsoever?

I have not personally ever lost any data (audio) while using the DEVA and I
have done probably the equivalent of over 800 "rolls" of tape. I have had a
few instances where the DEVA has quit for some reason or another (in the
very early days of DEVA) and I have had to rely on the backup recording to
be the primary recording, but I have never had to go to the backup to
replace audio "lost" by the DEVA.
>
> Do any of you roll a backup DAT concurrently with the DEVA?

I think most people are running backups (actually concurrent recordings just
as you state) to some other medium as this procedure seemed to become
commonplace as more and more people starting using DAT as the primary
recording. In the earliest days of DAT, almost everyone, including myself,
ran a Nagra in parallel with the DAT machine so that there would be,
hopefully, 2 bonafide recordings (with either the DAT or the Nagra being
considered the primary recorder). This practice evolved into doing
concurrent DAT recordings and the Nagra was abandoned for the most part.
Now, with the use of the DEVA, it was only logical to continue running the
backup DAT machine as a safety backup.
>
> Finally, is DEVA an acronym for anything?
>
We will have to ask Glenn Sanders about that. I do not believe it is an
acronym, but is rather a reworking of the term "diva" as applied to a
singer. Zaxcom has used musical terms for other products such as their Aria
line of broadcast consoles.

I hope this information is helpful. Feel free to inquire about other aspects
of non-linear production recording with the DEVA, you have posed some very
good questions here and hopefully I have provided some clear answers.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

A couple of personal thoughts about this subject.
>
> While the 24/48/96 bit/sample rate of the Deva might be a major
> consideration in a 2 hr movie, a 30 sec spot on TV dosn't seem to
> benefit from it yet. Even those TV shows recorded on a Deva don't sound
> any better when broadcast then others done on DAT or Nagra.

This is quite true. The recorder in use has always been the LEAST
significant part of the whole chain of events and this is still true to this
day regarding motion picture or television work. This does not, however, end
the discussion of the value of making the best quality production recording
that you can and this means a 24 bit digital recording will be better than a
16 bit digital recording (but is obviously not a fundamentally substantial
enough difference to choose one recorder over another for this reason only).

>
> It also seems to me that if you get a Deva you had better hold onto your
> DAT so you can service both camps until a new format is firmly
> entrenched.

I have hung onto both my DAT machines and my Nagras as there are jobs which
will require things to be recorded to either of these formats. I will also
venture to say that we are in a situation, in terms of technology, that
multiple formats will have to be supported, both on our end and on post's
end, for many years, possibly forever. Gone are the days of mono 1/4"
neopilot sync linear analog tape being the standard accepted worldwide by
everyone.
>
> For those of us who work in the spot world, especially here in S.
> Florida where we get people from all over the world comming here to
> shoot, communication with the post house (if known) is going to be a
> problem.

This is exactly what I was saying about the nature of commercials. If you
use anything other than DAT at this point in time, and the client is taking
the dailies back home, you better be able to give them a DAT cassette or you
haven't done the job properly. DAT is so firmly entrenched in the commercial
world now that if you record to an "old" Nagra $-STC you had better make
arrangements with the transfer/telecine house in advance.
>
> My personal feeling is that once other "Deva" type units hit the market,
> especially ones that don't require an outboard DVD recorder and are less
> expensive (such as the new Fostex direct to DVD field recorder) the
> changeover from DAT will be a lot smoother & faster.

For the recipient of the dailies, the thing that you give the client at the
end of the day, it makes now difference to them whether the DVD-RAM drive
was outboard, inboard, in the truck or whatever. This does make a difference
to US, production sound people, but acceptance of DVD-RAM by the client and
the post house will not be altered by recorders that have "direct to DVD"
built in. What will affect the acceptance of DVD-RAM media and the
changeover from DAT will be other "DEVA type" recorders coming on the market
and more people using these machines for production sound recording. As more
and more PEOPLE have experience with non-linear recording in production, the
benefits we now see with the DEVA will be more widely accepted.
>
> From my own informal poll of the S. Florida mixers that I know, not one
> has ever been asked to provide any other format but DAT, that too will
> most likely change in the future but not yet.
>
I'm sure you are right about that and I am pleased you posted the results of
your informal poll as I have only been speculating about the course of the
acceptance of non-linear recording and that based mostly on my experiences
here in L.A. (which is obviously a unique market).

because I always want to be able to use the latest and greatest stuff, even
if just for my own edification, and can never get anyone else to pay for my
"problem" (lust and curiosity for new gear). If a production specifically
requests (or demands) some piece of gear that I do not own, I may buy that
piece of equipment and then "make money" (not really) on the rental of that
piece of gear. Otherwise, if the majority of the equipment I own is new (and
paid for only by me), I'm never making any money on any of it until it is
paid off, right?

When I first used DAT, could I charge the production anything for the rental
of that DAT machine? No, certainly not. They were already paying for the
recorder, a Nagra 4.2, and it was MY CHOICE to use the DAT machine along
side the Nagra. Now, others might have handled this differently and sold the
producer on "going digital" and charged some new rate for this new
technological marvel (along with the rental on the Nagra) and I might have
made some money. The fact is, I wasn't trying to sell the producer on
anything, I was trying to sell myself (or educate myself) on the possibility
of using this new technology (Digital Audio Tape - DAT).

>I have presented it's
> cost and time savings to a producer on a very long job (five months) and
> basically, offered to split the profits with the company. A little extra
> for me, a little extra for them.

I personally have never tried to promote the use of ANY piece of equipment
to a producer by claiming it will save them time or money... This is just
something I don't want to do.

>Seemed to be a great idea until Deva was
> nixed by the post sound super because the project he was currently working
> on had "had some problems with the Deva tracks" and he said "no."

If the post production supervisor nixes the DEVA (or any other method of
recording) you have to do what they want. In the past, I have dealt with
this problem by demonstrating with real world tests that it all does work,
and then because I record a concurrent DAT recording (a format that the post
people are generally now familiar and comfortable with) their is no
liability in my use of the DEVA. There would be a liability, for example, if
I had also tried to charge them more for my use of the DEVA or had made a
case for all the time and money they were going to save. That is why I do
not promise these things. I let them discover the benefits of this way of
working for themselves... this makes a much more lasting impression than
some sales job I might attempt before we start shooting.

If people in post have had some bad experience, and they tie that to the use
of the DEVA, there is very little that can be done about that. Post people
and post facilities in general are fairly reactionary and very quick to
quash anything that brought them problems instead of solutions (unless the
"problem" is actually inherent in some outmoded but proven procedure that
they already use --- this they will defend to the death).

>Now mea
> culpula for not finding out what went wrong (and my guess was that it
> probably WASN'T the Deva) but I was too busy prepping and had no time to
> spend on chasing down sources that wouldn't matter to my show.

We only have so much energy and I have given up at times trying to sort out
whatever problems were encountered. On "Almost Famous" I developed a
procedure for the use of my DEVA tracks directly in telecine but the
telecine house screwed it all up, did not follow the procedures I had
established and tested in pre-production, and delivered tracks to editorial
that were often out of sync, with drop outs and missing takes. Needless to
say, editorial nixed the direct use of my DEVA tracks in telecine (to go
into the Avid) and opted for a more conventional route into the Avid. The
sound editorial house, Soundelux, were very pleased to make direct use of
the DEVA tracks, and were also quite pleased with being involved with
pioneering this new way of working in production. Soundelux has some very
good engineers and they are very much in tune with moving forward rather
than standing still. The telecine house was not of that mind.
>
> I am not one to live in the past; I upgrade regularly, and I am not working
> on studio pictures that pay $2500/wk for a sound package. My DAT works
> (dare I say?) flawlessly, and the company is the only one to benefit from
> Deva if I don't make some rentals. Right?

I guess my problem is I am too much of an idealist or something. When you
say the only one to benefit if you don't make some rentals is the company, I
don't really see it that way. I bought my first DAT machine and used it in
production and got no rental on it; I bought my DEVA (paid full price) and
used it in production with no rental collected; who benefited? I feel that
there was enormous benefit to ME, personally, (not financially) even if just
at the level of education and experience with new technology.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

The Deva is promising. It is the production that will take some time getting
> used to the new concept. How long did it take for the DAT concept? Does anyone
> know?
>
> Rusty

Jeff Wexler comments:

As far as the acceptance of DAT as the primary format I can only speak from
my own experience and observation of the industry. My history with DAT goes
all the way back to the first productions to ever use DAT as the primary
format. In fact, I usually claim that title, based on my knowledge of what
everyone else was doing at the time. I experimented with DAT on the film
"War of The Roses" with Danny DeVito, running a DAT machine simultaneously
with my Nagra for about half the movie. We did experiments with transferring
the material off DAT to mag, just as we did off the Nagra to mag. The next
movie was "Ghost" where I ran the DAT machine for the whole production and
we made the transfers off DAT to mag for that one. I was the co-founder and
owner of Northstar Media, a sound transfer facility here in L.A., so we did
all the transfers ourselves --- no one else was doing transfers from DAT to
mag (and no one else was attempting to use DAT for production sound). A few
years after that, and specifically when the so-called "professional"
portable DAT machines arrived, more and more mixers started using DAT but
still running the Nagra as the main recorder. Gradually, more people started
to treat the DAT recordings as the primary recordings, more and more
facilities were able to transfer off DAT (and got quite comfortable with it
--- even with the accompanying problems that this format had and still has)
but by and large, most mixers were still not comfortable with the format.
Even now, there are significant numbers of people who still do not wholly
support the DAT format (people in production and post-production) but use it
because of convenience, industry "standard" or producer requests. Just as
many people, I believe, are persuaded to not use DAT by a producer who
believes he has been burned in the past.

The story with the DEVA is a little different, certainly for me personally,
because unlike DAT recorders which continue to have problems, on my end, the
primary recording end, everything has always worked perfectly. On the post
production side, this has not been the case. Reluctance by people in post to
adopt a new style of PRODUCTION recording, non-linear file based, has been a
little rocky, considering that they have used non-linear systems in post
work but have always expected linear tape based media from us (even though
DAT is digital, it is still linear and tape based).

So, to try and answer your question, DAT took much longer to be accepted by
us, the mixers, the primary users, than has the DEVA; acceptance of the DEVA
as a production recorder for our use has been almost immediate. On the post
production side of things, DAT caught on very quickly for them because it
was basically linear tape which is what they had been dealing with for
years. Acceptance of non-linear production recordings, coupled with ever
increasing complexity in the whole process, has been slower than I would
like to see but will, in the final analysis, happen on both fronts more
quickly than DAT's acceptance.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Peter Kurland

Also, now using the ENHANCED Avid 10.5 with polyphonic BWF support with
good results, give or take some metadata issues.
And, today I finally found a use for the variable outputs on the Cameo,
making an adjustable mix for on set loudspeakers for off camera voices
(in another room for reflection issues). This plus the 4 main outs,
plus video assist, plus EPK, plus a send for our third (without video
playback) and a different mix for the camera departments intercom
program feed. And a submix for our puppeteers. Some days the Cameo is a
wonderful thing.

I¹m sure I am not the only one waiting for a viable replacement for R-Dat
to appear. My experience with the format goes back to 1988 when I bought the
first ³professional² Dat recorder to appear in the UK. This was the PCM
2000. It was built like a tank, offered phantom powered mic inputs (noisy),
and, a time code track which recorded, or attempted to record, time code
onto an analogue track that used the guard-band between the helical scan
area and the edge of the tape. Needless to say, the attempt to record
reliable time code on what was effectively a Dictaphone was doomed to
failure. Come to think of it now, the attempt to record 16 bit pcm reliably
on a 4mm tape running through a scaled down helical scan transport
originally designed as a piece of consumer electronics and to do it day
after day in the harsh conditions of film production was also hopelessly
optimistic.

Frankly, I was disappointed. I had just recorded two feature films using the
PCM-F1 system. This system seemed even more optimistic in concept - use an
encoder to convert 16 bit PCM to a black and white video signal that was
then recorded onto a modified Betamax VCR. However, it worked, it weighed a
ton, was luggable rather than portable, but it worked. Naively, I had hoped
that the system would evolve into a four channel recorder - lighter, and
possibly with a reliable time code track as well. Commercial rather than
technical pressures won out and we had Dat. Over the years the transport
mechanisms were refined and improved, power consumption was reduced, time
code was introduced into the data-stream and mic pre-amps got quieter.
However, we still have a format that is locked into 2 channel recording
(except for the Stelladat II) and can chew tape on you unexpectedly, having
cooked it first, thereby ruining your day. The number of threads in
professional news groups dealing with which tape has the best block error
rate, brand A or brand B, with often completely contradictory replies, do
not exactly inspire confidence.

The Nagra has always been the benchmark for a purpose-designed reliable
location recorder but when the Nagra D was introduced. I was disappointed
again. Although a four channel 20 bit format, It is beyond the budget of
most freelance sound mixers, and it is, again, luggable rather than
portable.

Ken Loach is one of the most respected film-makers in Britain. He has been
making films since the 1960¹s. Over this time he has always used a
³documentary² style of filming, shooting in script sequence, often with
non-actors in leading roles. His style requires that both on and off camera
lines are recorded at all times.

In early October shooting was completed on Ken¹s latest film ³Bread and
Roses².

I have done five previous films with Ken using either a Nagra 4S T/C Backed
up with a time code Dat or two Dat machines. There have been times during
the last three films where four track recording would have been very useful.
On the last film, ³My Name is Joe² , I used two Dat recorders running in
parallel to get four tracks. This proved problematic as one of the Dats had
no time code and it was necessary to ³match mods² to align the tracks in
post-production.

I was aware of the Deva through reading the internet news group
"rec.arts.movies.production.sound", particularly the posts by Jeff Wexler
describing it¹s use on a feature film. I rented a Mark I Deva and bought a
DVD-RAM drive in April this year to test the system. I used it for two music
recordings and was impressed by the clarity and openness of the sound and by
the simpility and speed of the back-up to the DVD-RAM disc. I decided that
I would use the Deva on the next film, particularly as this was to be shot
in Los Angeles and I would have good back-up should problems arise.

I contacted John Coffey at Coffey Sound and arranged to hire a Mark II Deva
and three2.2 gigabyte removable hard drives. I chose this size as it is a
good fit with the DVD-RAM discs I would be using for back-up mirroring.
Playback, DVD-RAM back-up and sync tests were done at the transfer facility
Sound Deluxe.

Ken Loach edits his films in what is now becoming the ³old fashioned² way:
Picture and sound are cut on a Steenbeck. Sound is on 35mm Mag with time
code and user bits from the location recorder recorded on the balance stripe
and a rough sound mix on the on the audio track(s).

When the picture edit is completed the sound reel is passed through a device
which reads jumps in the time code and produces an edit decision list for
the sound conform into a non-linear audio editing system (Audiofile in this
case).

The big challenge of working with Ken is the knowledge that what is recorded
on the day may well be all that is played out through the cinema
loudspeakers. While this is true of many films, it is made more difficult by
the fact that he will not add extra sound f/x to a scene; being a realist
film maker, only sounds that were there during the take will be used. Also,
no looping will be done for the same reason.

The first scene of the film involved a reenactment of an illegal crossing of
the US-Mexican border near Tijuana. As Ken always shoots in a documentary
style, a portable rig was needed. I had the Deva and my SQN mixer rigged in
a shoulder harness. Sound pick-up was by a M/S stereo mic (Schoeps MK8/MK41)
decoded to X/Y before recording onto Deva tracks 1 and 2. A radio mic on the
leading actress was recorded onto track 3. This was a real test of the
system as Ken shot the whole thing in one long take beginning with the
characters emerging from the undergrowth, climbing a steep rocky embankment
and running 150 yards before hiding again. Camera and sound ran with them.
I was concerned about the effect that the jarring from my running was having
on the Deva hard drive but no problems occurred.

Because Ken will not add f/x to a scene after the event, I sometimes record
sync takes in stereo. I am aware that out of phase information in a stereo
signal causes problems with sound being put into the surround channel when
passed through the Dolby SVA Matrix. For this reason I limit the stereo
width to that which produces the slightest widening of the of the image
when listening on headphones (Sennheiser HD 25¹s). I regard this not so much
as full stereo but more as enhanced mono, ie: giving a good widening of the
image should it be required but not so much as to compromise mono
compatibility. After setting image width I check this by monitoring in mono.
Operationally the Deva is very simple to use. Most functions are just two
button presses away. The front panel display is very informative, giving at
a glance access to the main operating modes. The ability to choose which
track format to use on a take by take basis changed my approach to many
scenes in this film. Whereas before I would have attempted to mix radio mics
with a boom- always a risky exercise - this time I had the option to put the
radio mics, or plant mics onto their own tracks leaving the final mix for
the dub. While I try to provide a fully mixed track whenever possible, there
are times when the action is so chaotic that separating elements onto
separate tracks is the responsible thing to do.
Leading on from this flexibility is the increased need to provide accurate
and comprehensive sound report sheets. I use a palm-top computer loaded with
a word processor template. Each page has the name of the production, the
date and Deva disc number at the top followed by columns giving the slate
and take number, the recording format (1 2 or 4 track) start time codes,
Deva segment numbers and finally comments. Because of it¹s non-linear nature
and excellent locate facilities it is easy to go back and fill in missed
information when necessary.

The Deva proved itself to be a reliable, good sounding and easy to use
device…. I think that Zaxcom are to be commended for
producing a new format that works very well. It is important to realise that
this is not a personal computer hard disc recording system in a box with
A/D¹s and I/O¹s. This machine has been designed from the ground up to be a
location sound recorder. The internal hard disc records data using the
Mobile Audio Recording Format. This optimises data transfer to and from the
disc in the harsh conditions of film production. I hope that the Deva
becomes widely adopted by the film industry. Using the Deva has been a risk
and an adventure for me. I look forward to using it again on feature and
documentary projects in the future.

Postscript:

During sound transfer, the contents of Deva¹s hard-drives were mirrored to
DVD-RAM. The file format used for this was BWF or Broadcast Wave Format.
These discs were then played out to 35mm mag through a Tascam MMR8 dubber
which was locked to house sync. During the test process we ensured that time
code was being received from the dubber and recorded to mag…
Ray Beckett AMPS

DEVA TODAY

by Carl England

The Deva format has gained substantial acceptance industry wide by the big budget features. The production mixers of these shows have paved the way and we are now seeing a second wave of users get acquainted with the perks of recording production audio on Deva.

I believe it’s time for an article addressing the current advances since the last Mix review on Deva (April ’99), one that addresses the new uses for the Deva, the status of compatibility with various audio and video editing workstations and how the Deva and it’s exported audio files are integrated into the various post processes.

Being the west coast rep for the Zaxcom Deva 4-channel hard disk field recorders, Coffey Sound is in the hot seat as new trails are being blazed in this audio technology. We have participated in every Hollywood based feature film and TV show that has used a Deva.

Deva is now the most respected production audio recorder in the field. It was even recently used to record the production audio on 3 of the biggest sound films of the year, ‘Star Wars - Episode II’, ‘Pearl Harbor’ and ‘Almost Famous’.

Matt Wood of Skywalker Sound called and said George Lucas planned to film another ‘Star Wars’ in Australia and wanted to do it with Deva. Since Skywalker was using Pro Tools, we decided the Deva should mirror to DVD in Sound Designer II file format. And the DVD’s would be sent in to Skywalker every night.

DVD Ram

DVD ram is the most popular way to deliver dailies to post production. Deva mirrors to DVD ram in two ways. Normal mode: Every time the unit goes into stop, usually between takes, and Turbo mode: all at once at the end of the day or during breaks. The DVD Ram disc then becomes the master and the internal Deva 30 gig hard drive becomes an additional back up. The drives are removable and swappable. Each internal Deva 30 gig drive holds over 56 hours of single track audio, over 30 hours of 2 track and over 14 hours of 4 track audio.

Sound FX recording

The most notable area of growth for Deva has been in the surge of sales to post editorial, specifically to record superior sounding 24 bit fx. I have personally heard the difference between 16 bit DAT fx compared to the same fx recorded on a 24 bit Deva. The difference is astounding! One fx in particular that stands out was recorded by Peter Devlin, the production sound mixer on "Pearl Harbor". It was the sound of World War II Zero airplanes on low overhead pass. I actually ducked because it sounded like they were really going inches over my head. That same fx would never have had the same ‘life’ if recorded on a DAT.

A few of the well known Deva owners that use Deva for sfx include:

Dane Davis, Academy Award winner for ‘Matrix’, who says that the Deva is the now the main recording tool at Danetracks. Davis says he loves the format and "we find it to be extremely clean and practical…it’s miles better than doing a real time audio transfer…we drag the sound right onto our server and it’s available for all the editors to use. The combination of new mics and the Deva is so clean that it reminds me of the early digital days…"

Wiley Statemen, of Soundelux owns Devas too. He says the fx he now records "blow away the old 2 channel, 16 bit DAT recordings". Wiley often uses Deva in stealth mode when he records fx of events for his films, sometimes hiding 4 microphones in a specially rigged hat or backpack. Wiley says that "Deva is a exciting as it gets when it comes to digital field recording"

Randy Thom from Skywalker says he "loves his Deva more now than when he first bought it…I really appreciate the small, lightweight package. The Deva preamps are very, very good. I use them almost exclusively, even to record very quiet fx and ambiences."

Larry Blake used a Deva to record sound fx for ‘Erin Brockovitch’ and ‘Traffic’. Blake says he loves the portability and the 4-channels of 24 bits along with the built in pre-roll and SDII files.

DAW’s

Currently, Deva exports SDII or Broadcast Wave audio files to DVD and Jaz drives that can be dragged and dropped to audio hard drives and imported and placed via timestamps by Pro Tools, Audiovision, Waveframe and Fairlight DAW’s.

Macintosh Power PC’s and G3’s are able to read DVD’s on an Panasonic external DVD Ram Drive (LF-D102 or LF-D201) with software drivers called DVD Ram Tune Up ($99.99) and Dos Mounter ($95.00), both distributed by Software Architects (www.softarch.com). G4’s require an adapter cable to go from the output of the SCSI card to SCSI II connector on the DVD ram drive. The considerations for DVD with Audiovision are the same as with Pro Tools since they both work on Macintosh.

The Waveframe is a simpler setup. The drivers mentioned above are not required, since both the Deva and the Waveframe are Fat 16 systems. The process is the same except the Deva must write BWF files on the DVD.

Fairlight is now able to read 16 bit BWF files on it’s server systems. The stand alone MFX series editors do not have the drivers required to read DVD ram drives.

As of this writing, Fairlight expects to be 24 bit compatiable soon.

Macintosh Avid

As of this writing Zaxcom and Avid are in the process of creating compatable files that will transfer from the Deva to the Macintosh Avid. DSP Media Inc. has created an application called "AVtransfer" which makes Deva’s SDII files importable into the NT/PC Avid. Importing into the Mac Avid is currently a real time process. The digital outputs of the Deva are connected to the digital inputs of the Avid. The Avid runs it’s usual beta deck, and the Deva chases the timecode output of the Beta. The scene and take numbers are then manually entered into the Avid.

Music Recording

Live music recorded on location is another unexpected place that Deva has been gaining huge popularity. The recordings from the little Deva box are as good as it’s massive counterparts that need entire crews to lug around. So Deva is often used to replace all those crates of gear with the same excellent results.

Deva has now been used to make live music recordings for television broadcasts of many live performances. John Tesh has often used Deva for his live recordings and Don Worsham has recorded live performances of many famous artists including Alanis Morissette, Collective Soul, Wyclef Jean, Leanne Rimes, Wynona Judd, Brian McKnight, Mobie, and many others.

Sound transfer and Telecine

The two remaining post production processes left to discuss are sound transfer and telecine. The benefits of Deva in tranfer and telecine is instant locate and lock times, with no pre-roll needed. There are two dubbers that can playback DVD ram drives. They are the Tasacam MMR series dubbers and the Akai DD8 dubber. The Tascam MMR or MMP series dubbers can read files written in BWF.

The DVD external ram drive is connected via SCSI cable to the dubber. The dubber chases and reads the files off the DVD. In order to locate a take on the dubber the operator must enter timcode numbers, which means the sound mixer needs to notate timecode numbers for each take on the sound report. Having a Deva in the transfer bay is the preferred unit because it will read the segment ID’s, so the production mixer does not need to mark down timecode numbers.

The Akai DD8 will read not only BWF files on the DVD but also SDII files. It is important to remember to have the latest software versions for both of these units for optimum functionality.

Credits

Currently, many of the industry’s most distinguished sound mixers are using the Deva on some of Hollywood’s most prominant feature films. Besides ‘STAR WARS’, ‘PEARL HARBOR’ and ‘ALMOST FAMOUS’, these include Disney ‘THE KID’, production mixer: Peter Devlin, Sony ‘THE GIFT’, production sound mixer: Ed Novick; Fox Searchlight ‘ONE HOUR PHOTO’, production mixer: Richard Van Dyke; Universal ‘RED LINE’, production mixer: Felipe Borrero, and Fox Pictures ‘FIGHT CLUB’, production sound mixer: Jeff Wexler..

Current Deva television shows include the last 4 seasons of ‘JAG’, shot in Hollywood, production mixer: Sean Rush, and ‘The Street’, shot in New York City, production mixer: Billy Sorokin.

Most of the major post production facilities are now using Deva including the major studios such as Sony and Disney. Special kudos should go to the following facilities whose pioneering efforts have paved the way for many of today’s new applications with Devas, especially: Sound Deluxe, Skywalker Sound, SSI, Echo, Hollywood Digital, Digital Domain, Encore, Matchframe and Dane Tracks.

More Updates

One of the more substantial updates for the Deva is the use of the new 30 gig hard drives, which are formatted into 4 gig partitions. Each partition operates like a completely separate hard drive, accepting up to 250 recorded segments.

Another advancement is the record track indicator, which displays a marker on the signal of each track that is being recorded to, visually confirming which tracks are armed. You can store your 3 favorite headphone monitoring settings (from 13 settings) and recall them easily on the home page. Also, Deva now stores all your parameter settings without the battery and the Incremental User Bit jam function turns over to a new date every 24 period.

The Deva has many untapped non-linear capabilities which mean more changes are certain to be coming again and again as technology catches up to the Deva’s potential adaptability. Deva may never be "finished". Deva has already morphed several times as technology changed from Jaz to DVD. I’m sure MIX will need to do another update article to spotlight the future changes still to come in the continuing Deva anthology.

Deva/Cameo quote from William Sorokin:

They'll have to pry it (and the Cameo) out of my cold dead hands. I use the Deva with the Cameo, and the Cameo display takes over for many of the functions of the Deva. I strongly recommend that anyone using the Deva to buy the Cameo.

The Cameo faders are high quality P&G. They are not directly connected to the main board. My faders are 15 months old now and feel like new. The machine seems very well built (I've been inside of it quite a few times to replace software chips). In some ways it is overbuilt. Glenn made many of the digital functions accessible through switches (as they would be on an analog board). The switches are the familiar controls. Mic powering, gain settings, EQ and low cut on and off's, channel assignments, etc. These functions can all be controlled either with the switches or via the software (where you have much greater control over the functions). For example, you can turn the high pass filter for each channel on and off via a switch. Through the software you can adjust the same high pass to any frequency. You can even do this during a shot if wind noise is starting to get through.

I have Cameo #001. I will never use another board.
I hope that wasn't too subtle.

1) It's almost like the mixer is alive. It keeps improving. Except for one hardware change (greatly improved mic pre's) all the improvements have been via software. By changing 2 chips it's like getting a new board. One great example. The mixer has unbelievable routing facilities, but while it was very easy to monitor off of any of the
record decks (I use the Deva and a DAT) it wasn't easy to route signals from one deck to the other (for instance, if you want to copy a track from the Deva on to the DAT). I mentioned this to Glenn at Zaxcom and
one chip later the Cameo now has an entire routing screen devoted to routing any of the tape returns back into the mix bus so they can be sent to any other track of any other deck. I also use it to route Deva outputs to my Comtek for when the script person wants to listen to a replay.

2) Great components. I don't baby my gear and work in horrible environments yet the faders still feel brand new.

3) When I say I'll never use another mixer it's because I expect the Cameo to just keep improving over time. If Glenn comes out with a 10-12 input board I might buy it.

4) Redundancy. The thing has so many features that even if there is a major failure you can work around it.

6) NO NOISE! The thing is almost too quiet. It's very clean, very simple to use (twice over the past year I had to replace my self for a day thanks to an emergency root canal). Both times mixers came in who had never worked with the Cameo and got right up to speed with it.

Anyway, the Cooper is a great analog board but the Cameo is a great studio.

___________________________________________

Deva Quote from Dane Davis (Oscar winner, Matrix")

The Deva is now the main recording tool for Danetracks.

We love the format; we find it to be extremely clean and practical….and it’s miles better than doing a real-time audio transfer. We drag the sound right onto our server…and it is available for our editors to use.

The combination of new mics (Schoeps) and the Deva is so clean it reminds me of the early digital days… ______________________________________________

Deva quote from Randy Thom (Skywalker):
First, I should say that I love the Deva now even more than when I first got it. My application is different from most of you in that I use it mostly for sound effects recording in two-track mode.

I love the fact that it's as small as it is. I'm mostly an over-the-shoulder guy who uses the Deva to record sound effects in the field, and I really appreciate such a small, light-weight package.

I just replaced my Sennheiser MKH MS mic setup with Schoeps CCMs, and I have to say that I had forgotten how sweet Schoeps mics sound. In my opinion this mic package is the smallest, highest quality stereo setup out there. It sounds great plugged directly into the Deva mic
preamps. And by the way, the shockmounting of the CCMs, inside the roundish Rycote zepplin is the best shockmounting of any mic setup I've ever experienced. Really amazing. I made M-S recordings with the Deva, which I copied (as I usually do) via AES into ProTools. Yes, I do use the Deva preamps, which I find very low-noise, fed by a Schoeps CCM hypercard and figure eight, a very easy mic setup to shockmount and windscreen for location work. I've been copying sounds from my various hard drives onto DVD for back-up and archive purposes.

The Deva is a great machine. Keep up the wonderful work, Glen and everybody at Zaxcom!
______________________________________________
Deva quote from Felipe Borrero:

"The added dynamic range over DAT is incredible. The 4 tracks also proved invaluable when the director wanted to do two scenes simultaneously."

Deva quote from Larry Blake:

I love Deva’s portability and 24 bits of 4-channel audio with built in pre-roll. I also am very pleased that it writes files for SD II as well as broadcast wav.

I have been on set where this has happened, way to many times here. Working in
> the South can reek havic on DAT. Hey does anyone know where I could buy a
> battery operated hair dyer?
>
No, but I do know where you could buy a DEVA (just kidding). You could try a
travel store. I once saw a portable rechargeable battery operated hair dryer
in one of those stores that sells travel accessories (like international
voltage irons, etc.).

But seriously, one of the great benefits for me with the DEVA has been the
complete absence of any of those DAT related problems and the ability to
work in any and all environments and conditions. I know it is not yet
feasible for many of us to do all our work with DEVA but it is only a matter
of time. It is my feeling that ALL linear tape based recording formats are
on the way out, and when that transition is accomplished, many of the
headaches that have been discussed here will disappear. So as to not be
flamed here for my unabashed praise of the DEVA, I might add that as those
DAT related problems disappear, we will obviously be faced with possibly
other sets of problems; I have just been very lucky, I guess, and have had
no recording problems with my DEVA.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

What happens if the Nagra V loses power in the middle of a long take?
> >
> > The problem with a standard DOS format means that the table of contents
> > (TOC/FAT) must be written at the end of a recording in order for the
> machine
> > to find it again later.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
John Rodda.

> Dear John,
> The answer to your question depends on whether the power loss is due to
some
> oik pulling the plug or just reduced battery power.
> If there is sudden unpredicted power loss, the Nagra V will obviously
cease
> to record and the current "Take" will not be closed properly, although if
as
> anticipated we have a similar system to the ARES-C then there is some
chance
> to recover the "Take" up to the moment of power loss.
> If on the other hand a more likely scenario of simple battery drain, then
> the machine will commence an orderly closing of the audio file BEFORE the
> battery voltage drops below a critical level as will be indicated on the
LCD
> screen.
> I trust this answers your query in full.
> I applogise for the delay in responding but even our top technicians in
> Switzerland are allowed to have holidays :o)
> Yours sincerely,
> Derek
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Rodda <jr@jrsound.com>
> To: <IBSNET@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 5:26 PM
> Subject: RE: [ibsnet] Nagra-V

DEVA and AVID

The comments on ramps are refreshing because they prove a new level of understanding about the future
of recording non-linear.

I will encourage Avid or Glenn Sanders to answer the questions about
their product announcement. Due to the fact that the Avid and Zaxcom
engineers just finished the software a few days before NAB, the sales
people at Avid did not have very much solid information. We did talk to
Rob Kobrin who is a Vice-President at AVID and I know this was a project
he had been pressing along for a long time and he assured us that more
news will soon be available as the Media Film Composer 10.5 release date
grows near.

I do know it will be broadcast wav. I think all manufacturers who write
broadcast wav will be able to use the program, but I think that a
Deva/Cameo in combination will have certain advantages in ease of use.
Again, I'll ask Zaxcom to explain that. I also think that a laptop
program can be used too.

We have waited years for this. Be patient a little longer and the rest
of the answers will be forthcoming. It is not uncommon to rush techs to
finish projects in time for NAB announcements because that show is so
important. This is not vaporware and it will be released in a few
weeks.

This has wonderful ramifications for ALL future non-linear recorders.

Whether you do or don't like Deva, everyone has to recognize that it has
done a lot to pave the way to the eminent future of non-linear
recording.

All interesting stuff! Now we're talking my favorite subjects....cool
new ideas for our audio future! (Not the same old stuff about
windscreens, new colors of lav mics, another power supply, blah,
blah....). I just got back from NAB and I'm very excited about the
fact that everyone (audio, camera and editorial) is starting to move
toward a position of non-linear solidification.

Here's the feeling at Coffey Sound. Deva has been traveling this road
long before anyone else, so we have some experience with the new
technologies as to what's been tried and true this far. Let's discuss
the production location audio line-up for the future... today. Call
this a commercial but here's our take on things. Let's hear yours too.

ON MEDIA:
Our belief is that it is now all about delivering the media of choice to
post. Tape has been dying a slow death as we go through this
transposition period.

Audio Tape:
Going, going....gone in 2 years. We are one of the last hold outs to
use tape in the professional or consumer world. Even our children use
non-linear media today. (Can you imagine what they would say today if
you made them have listen through fast forward and rewind to find
songs?) Unless it is recorded on Nagra D or HD tape, it does not make
sense to continue to record slow moving tape at an inferior 16 bits in a
future where more post devices will be able to stay in the 20 and 24 bit
realm throughout.

The New Media: It's just a place to store non-linear audio information.
Don't ever fall in love with any one media because none of them will
last too long before a better, newer media arrives. It just doesn't
matter any more. This is a new concept that sound professions will have
to get used to. Media is media is media! It's only important that the
media you use, be robust and preferred by the post production
department. Once the audio is put on a non-linear format, copies are
made easily in post. No one will be editing on "The Master Tape" any
more. Instead, all the editors can have their own "master" to work off.
Sony Post-production is 100% non-linear and most of their features shoot
wit Devas. I have seen this concept recently at Disney Post-Production
as they worked on 'Pearl Harbor'. I doubt if they even know where "the"
original masters are anymore because they are not necessarry.

Jaz: Deva tried it but too many failures in the field. Even the beefed
up ADSG versions for field use failed maybe 1% of the time (way too
much). Drives were cheap but the Jaz media was too expensive.

ORB: Deva tried Orb drives after the failure with Jaz. Jeff Wexler (as
usual) was the first to use this media too. We were all excited that it
would replace Jaz. Jeff may still have hopes but Coffey Sound saw too
many failures of the drives to feel comfortable enough to continue using
Orb in the field. So we sadly gave up on Orb too and went back to
recommending that the Deva internal drives be swapped out in the field
to be on the safe side. Luckily, DVD then came on the scene.
The Orb media is about $30 for 2+ gigs.

MO: Never made any headway as a media for field use and remains a post
production only media. The media is expensive...over $50.

CD: Don't hold enough gigs of information and have a problem using 4
tracks or 24 bits of audio. Too bad because the blank media is under
$5.

DVD RAM: When DVD came on the scene, Deva jumped over to it quickly
because it seemed apparent that it would become a universal standard.
That assumption has proven true as DVD has taken the professional and
consumer world by storm. It has proven robust when used on a non-moving
cart. Costs around $18 (Due to it's acceptance, the price is dropping
and we hope to see prices for blank media under $10 in the near future).
DVD-RAM use may change to DVD-RW or other DVD type someday.

Avid Sleds: It's an excellent idea that we explored once but did not
have the technical expertise or time to pursue.
Peter Kurland, please keep us informed.

Other Media: Sorry to say this, but unlike tape, the "media du jour"
will always be changing. There will be solid state, chips, sticks, rods
and better media that have not been seen yet. Also, making back-ups may
be part of our routine until we trust each new media. This is where the
technology is going in more distant years so don't get too used to
today's media. It is very important that the non-linear field recorder
you decide to use, be versatile and able to conform to the future new
medias as they arrive on the scene.

RECORDERS TODAY AND FUTURE:
There is a misconception that only one non-linear recorder will be owned
by everyone in the future. To the contrary, I believe Fostex, Zaxcom,
Tascam, Sony, Nagra, HHB and even Marantz and many others will all make
similar, non proprietary, non-linear recorders for sale and that they
will ALL work together but have different features that make us all pick
one over the other for our personal tastes and needs; ie. such as
tracks, size, outs...etc. Some of the statements I hear that Fostex
will kill Deva, or Nagra will kill Fostex, or HHB's gonna ...are
ridiculous. The days of one recorder being used by everyone are over.
The media will be the new king, not the recorder.

HHB: Has ceased production of their Portadat 1000 TC line DAT recorder.
As of NAB 2001 there was no talk of anything for the future yet, not
even a solid rumor.

Fostex: Rick is doing a great job gathering information and
co-ordinating the production of a field unit. As of NAB 2001, Fostex
only showed a DVD post-production unit that will be ready later this
year. I will let Rick tell you himself what their final plans are and
costs, but he has promised that it will not be a proprietary recorder.
In fact, I can say that Rick told me he will make sure the recorder will
be able to hot swap DVDs with Deva as part of the early beta testing
period. That means Fostex and Deva will have compatibility. This is a
major first from the proprietary nonsense of the past.

Nagra: For over 30 years, they were the recorder of choice until DAT
arrived. The Nagra IV-STC will soon be obsolete and the great Nagra D
(I always like it a lot) will still be around awhile, but the ARES-C
never caught on for production sound for good reason. Nagra then
unveiled the Nagra V at NAB. The Nagra V looks exactly like an ARES-C
with an Orb drive attached on top. I am surprised that Nagra would
commit to Orb media and use only 2 tracks. It will be interesting to
see how it fares in rugged field conditions of constant use. Even if
Orb works good enough in the field, it seems very risky for Nagra to bet
all of it's wad on the success of just one type of media that post may
not want to see anyway now that DVD is so popular. Maybe Nagra will
give away some recorders to prominent mixers to get the ball rolling.
It's quite a gamble that will be interesting to follow. IMO it'll be an
uphill battle to make Orb sucessful. We've been there, done that
alrteady. If it works out, I'm sure the other manufacturers will suit
(Deva already uses Orb too), but I just can't imagine moving away from
the cheaper universally accepted DVDs at his point. The Nagra V will
sell for around $8,000 (with drive and case).

360 Master Recorder: I like 360 products a lot, but I just don't see
this beast in the field. Big. 4 or 8 tracks but looks like a rackmount
studio machine. Not portable and has no internal battery power.
Remindsme of a Tascam DA-98 but most unfortunately, it records
proprietary DVDs that can only be played on other 360 machines (unless
another transfer is made). Been out a long time and have not seen much
acceptance. Only know a couple mixers who have them.

Laptop: The potential is always there to do field recordings in this
arena. I agree with Roland in that it's a useful tool to explore. The
usual problems still exist of portabiity, durability, ability to handle
rapid envirnmental, climate, quick- extreme temperature changes, etc.

DEVA: Yes, I'm still biased to Deva. IMO, at this time, only the
Fostex looks like it has the potential to be close. Deva has now been
around a long time. It was made to evolve over the coming years as it
has stayed up with the past years. A rugged box that's software driven
and still will be the smallest unit for over shoulder use of any the new
recorders. There have already been more software changes in response to
customer needs than all the old recorders combined. Deva has changed to
work with it's own internal 30 gig drive as a back-up to Jaz, Orb, MO,
or DVD. Today, Deva is used as a tandem device to record to whatever
media you wish to use. Deva is not locked into any one media and will
easily be able to change to most any future media. Deva is already HD
ready with a new 23.976 HD frame rate just added.
Cost under $9,999 + $550 for the new 30 gig internal drive.

The future is starting to get clearer and I'm really enjoying watching
all the toys that were a glimmer in someone brain a few years ago coming
to fruition. The times, they are a changing...

John Coffey

I would like to respond to comments and mis-conceptions regarding the
production track for "Pearl Harbor"
The production was recorded on the Deva with DVD's going to sound editorial
as
SD 11 files 16 bit, as requested by our supervising dialogue editor.
Whilst on location we always commited a stereo pair to tracks 3+4 of the Deva
when we had Zero's Val's and Kate's in the air.We also recorded many stereo
background wallas with extras.
Our supervising dialogue editor called me on the final day of mixing to tell
me that 99% production dialogue was in the film,and that in many cases they
were able to utilise our stereo fx and crowd wallas in some way.Regarding the
director accomodating the sound department, it never happened,we shot
multiple cameras wide and tight,lots of noisy smoke fx,fan noise and ad libs
from the actors in the combat sequences.The amount of sound design that went
into the film was phenomenal and you can read all about the post for the film
in Audio Media and Mix magazine.
I use the Deva because I believe it is the best field recorder on the market
for my needs.I also love the Nagra D, but when I was running to get in the
cockpit of a B-25 I was thankful that I had a Deva over my shoulder.

Peter

Thank you Peter for clearing the air, so to speak, and congratulations on an
excellent production job on "Pearl Harbor" under what was obviously very
rough conditions with a director who wants to shoot things exactly as he
pleases. "Sound design" as Randy Thom believes should be present DURING
production, I'm sure was nonexistent, and all designing had to be done by
you and your crew on the day, and you all deserve a lot of credit for making
a lot of good decisions and utilizing the proper equipment for the job.
Jeff

I have a few questions regarding these posts. First let me start off by
saying that I to did hear Peter Devlin's original production sound on both
DAT and Deva when he brought it to me beaming, and yes the Deva did sound
better. That didn't surprise me however, the Deva has a huge advantage over
DAT in terms of dynamic range etc, etc, etc. Proving this is not my point. I
love DAT AND Deva! I would take either one of those boxes to war with me any
day. My questions are as follows: Wouldn't it be an advantage to record at a
higher bit rate from an archive standpoint, say for final mix of the DVD
release or other 20/24+ bit use? Also, after reading these posts and others
from this group over the past year and a half regarding bit depth, I have
spoken with many editors who have said that Avid and others will soon be
running at 24 bits. Is this true? I am not a post guy so I am at a
disadvantage here. What are the rumors around the water coolers in post? ETA
of 24 bits? Please let me know your thoughts in this area.
Thanks in advance, Chris.

Dear Derek,
> >
> >

My post early in this thread (about the high percentage of production dialog
tracks used in the final mix) seemed to strike a nerve, particularly with
those in post production. The statement was not intended to take away from
anyone, but only to compliment a job well done. Most Production Sound Mixers
will confess that one of their goals is to require as little ADR as
possible. Peter Devlin's efforts in the production tracks earned him this
compliment.

Some responses argued that the airplane sfx were not all taken from the
production tracks. I'm not sure who the argument was with, because it was
never stated that all of the airplane sfx were from the production tracks,
only that some of the production airplane sfx were used. In fact, a
respectable amount were used, again, largely due to the efforts of the
production sound department.

It was mentioned that the Deva played a part in allowing some of the
production sfx to be used. Of course, someone took this as a commercial for
Zaxcom, which, of course, it wasn't. But it's interesting that this struck
the nerve of a Nagra D owner/renter. Since this group is for professionals,
it serves everyone's commercial interest to be informed. I do think it is
beneficial for sound mixers to know that a relatively new recording format
was successfully used in such a notable production, so I mentioned it. Peter
Devlin used the Nagra D on "Any Given Sunday", and that was mentioned too.

Then, of course, there was the old standby, the 16 bit vs.. 20 bit vs.. 24
bit debate. This is normally a debate worth having, but in the case of Pearl
Harbor it's a moot point because the DVD-RAMs were (as I recall) mirrored in
16 bit mode at the request of post production.

"And i do hop into car trunks …

first of all, stay out of car trunks. There are few enough good sound mixers as is. There is no need to kill ourselves off by trying to work in car trunks. Remember, if you are in the car trunk that means the camera operator is in the car, and that often means the ACTOR is driving and acting. Bad combination. Alternatives are to work from a follow or lead car (if you have good rf mics) or just put the deck in the trunk and turn it on.

As for 'translation blabla', how is that different whether you are using the Nagra D, Sonodat or the Deva? All have to be loaded into the Avid and EDL's prepared.

Also, you've mentioned the Sonodat a couple of times. Are people using them as 4 track machines in Europe? How are post houses dealing with the 4 track DAT tapes (I assume they must buy a Sonodat too). How do they deal with the 'translation blabla'? And why would anyone buy a $14000 16 bit, 4 tr DAT when for $10000 they can buy a 24 bit 4 track Deva. Sorry for the Sonodat dig. The Stelladat was by far the worst purchase I ever made in professional audio. For me the Deva is the most flawless machine I've used since the Nagra 4.2.

Part of the problem here is that it simply won't be the standard in 10 years. It
just won't. Ten years ago people were just starting to get used to DAT, and the
company that manufacturers most [all?] the DAT transports has stopped
production, so I don't know what you'll be buying for a recorder in 10 years,
but it won't be a DAT machine.

nagra-d: much too heavy to hop into a car trunk or gather some fx in "porta
> barce mode".
>
> stelladat: too exotic over here. no alternative transfer.
>
> deva is the only alternative.
>
Jeff Wexler comments (and changes the title of this thread to "non-linear
recording"):

The DEVA is the only viable alternative at this time. I eagerly await the
actual arrival of machines from Fostex, HHB and the legendary Nagra. I
believe these machines could be almost a year away before we can get our
hands on them and actually put them through the paces. I will continue to
use the DEVA and expect the continuation of 100% reliability I have had in
the past. I will put up with the few annoying things about the DEVA as I am
quite sure that Glenn Sanders and Zaxcom will not make fundamental hardware
changes to the present DEVA II. Their resources, I'm sure, have been
stretched to the limit providing unprecedented customer support and software
upgrades to implement new features. Keep up the good work.

JW

So howe are these HD recorders get the Multitrack info the BWF files then
> ... Just import & put the files against a Timeline ?

It's called the AES31-3 ADL (Audio Decision List). Some record BWF
native already. The format is not finalized but BWF can be timestamped
as well as unique user ID'd so an ADL is not critical but obviously
usefull. There is provision for fade information amongst other usefull
functions.

Most importantly, the ADL is sample accurate rather than frame accurate
(OMF) and 96 tracks wide with provision for sample rates beyond 48k.

Here's an old public comment document:

http://aessec.aessc.aes.org/pub/draft-aes31-1-xxxx.pdf

Apperantly every feature is done in a different way, using different
> software, avid software versions, or hardware, or rented edit-Deva's.

You are right, this is certainly the case. Once the full track mono Nagra
(first the Nagra III, then the 4 and 4.2) ceased to be the only production
recorder in widespread use, and when the various new linear and non-linear
editing systems came into existence (now dominated by Avid), each project
has had its own set of procedures and protocols. Each of these procedures
evolved into a "standard", at least for that sort of project, completed in a
certain manner, but there ceased to be one STANDARD way of doing everything.
We are now in a point in time where technological change is very rapid,
adopting new equipment and new procedures is happening very rapidly and
often without much more thought than just getting through the current
project. I have done over 50 full length motion pictures, hundreds of
commercials, documentaries, industrials and so forth, and for the first 20
years everything was pretty much standard procedure. Beginning in 1988 when
I first experimented with using digital audio tape for feature films, lots
of things began to change. This is the state of affairs.

Regards. Jeff

I do not personally accomplish these tasks, I just deliver my daily work to
the transfer facility. On the present job, they are pulling the audio tracks
with time code off the DVD-RAM disk and it goes onto Avid drives delivered
to the editing room. So, in this case, it is not a direct file import as far
as I understand this particular scenario.

Time code is always 30 frame non-drop for 99% of all project generated on
film in the U.S. If any other time code rate is used it is for some special
purpose. Film shot at 24 fps, sound uses 30 frame non-drop code.

JW

i envy you guys in hollywood. you just say "here i am. i record on a deva.
> here´s the dvd-ram." then there are experts at cool telecine houses that are
> forced to cope with whatever they get if they want to get the job.
> here it´s the other way around. mostly.
>
> frank.

This is not exactly an accurate picture of how things evolve, albeit quite
rapidly, in 'Hollywood." I have been in situations, originally with DAT as I
have explained before, where I had to go to these "cool telecine houses" and
install, configure, set up and test their equipment, so that we could all
move forward a bit into new territory. I have also had productions refuse to
use certain pieces of equipment and certain procedures, or refuse to use a
post house that I know has no problem with the way I work. On the other
side, as you seem to be mentioning, I have managed to secure major contracts
for post houses who are eager to do the "new" work and they have thanked me
for pushing them into new areas (and helping them get more work).

So, I don't just show up with my Deva, hand them a DVD-RAM disk, and expect
it all to happen by magic. Even in the very ancient days of the old mono
Nagra standard, I would not simply deliver a 1/4" tape and expect it all to
happen. I always recorded a test roll, azimuth tests were performed,
alignment and level checks (based on my particular style of mixing) and so
forth. It is no different now, just more complicated!

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Jeff Wexler comments on the comment:
>
>> DVD-RAM is a storage medium with very rigorous formats supported world wide,
>> and when required to store industry standard audio file formats it is
>> proving to be quite capable and is, in fact, becoming the standard here in
>> the U.S.
>
> Well, we disagree on this one :-)

This is not a statement that requires agreement or disagreement, it it is
merely a statement of fact regarding the use of DVD-RAM media. There are 3
independent websites, and the websites of the various manufacturers of both
drives and media, that track the worldwide usage and acceptance of all sorts
of things. This is not something one agrees with or disagrees with.
>
>
> Indeed, 24 is more than 16, and the term ""inferior"' ( poor quality )
> could be used. I only know this term in relation to racial, or
> biological matters.

This is just semantics, or a language problem. Superior - Inferior, Higher -
Lower, Better - Worse... Get the picture? I hardly think this has
anything to do with race or ethnicity.
>
> But, does the avid than truncate the 24 stuff to 16 ? How long does
> this take, timewise ?
>
As stated by others here, regarding least significant bit and dithering, I
don't believe it takes any additional time.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

The Deva can write either 16 or 24 bit to the DVD's in either SD2 or BWF/WAV format.

Billy

The Deva is versatile and can use most medias including ORB drives too,
IF they should miraculously become the media of choice in post.

John Coffey

Almost every technological change, regardless of origin, has been resisted
to some degree by people on both sides of the procedures, even those systems
which SHOULD have been vigorously resisted and possibly never even adopted.
The general form that this resistance takes is bashing the new technology,
claiming that it won't work or it will take longer to do, something will be
lost, nothing will be gained, etc., and what is usually under all of this is
"we will have to change" something, and lots of people don't like change.

When I first started using DAT (and I do believe that I was the first on the
west coast to use DAT for feature films) and I had to set up Twentieth
Century Fox to do the transfers on a movie where my company, Northstar Media
Sound Services was not going to be allowed to do them, there was a lot of
resistance. Then the word got back to the producer that the daily transfers
were going to be a lot more expensive and time consuming because they were
"digital" and there were a lot of "sync" issues. Well, this was a totally
straightforward, non-timecode, non-telecine, non-non linear job, and my DAT
tape was the ONLY thing that was digital in whole process. The sound editor,
I believe, may have been using an e-mu systems sampledr for some hared
effects, but that's about it. No "smart slates" no Avid, nada.

I had to convince the producer that the people at Fox were being very
reactionary and unreasonable and in fact the transfer time would be greatly
reduced by my use of DAT and the transfer department should actually reduce
the cost to the production for the daily transfers.

Once they got into, they realized what a great thing the start ID's and
PNO's were, and how much time it saved them. Very quickly they segued into
asking why the PNO's can't be something like "Sc. 23A, take 2" instead of
just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. They wanted the world. I told them about start ID's
being an afterthought in the DAT format, the 9 second time constraint, etc.,
etc., and also told them that they should just pretend that this show was
being done "the old way" on 1/4" tape, where they would actually have to
LISTEN to the tape to figure out what to transfer.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

As for more work than a DAT, hardly. Consider this Deva scenario: An entire
day's work (about 2 hours of 4 track recording) transferred from DVD into
Avid in 8 minutes. This is now happening in a New York production using the
Deva. I'll leave the details to the mixer responsible for the work, but
that's a monumental advancement in time/money savings.

I'm not sure if this show is making DVDs with 16 bit or 24 bit, but
obviously, as more post production facilities become 24 bit capable, 24 bits
will be requested.
Glen

The fabulous 1 - 10 sec prerecord buffer really helps in these areas, and now
the latest software upgrade provides the pre-record benefit with sequential TC
as well, a great achievement.

With regards to false rolls... I don't quite understand your worry....the same
thing has happened with Nagra and DAT recordings
for years.

I for one would always try to indicate false rolls or broken takes with a
notation, PNO, or TC note in the past to keep telecine from guessing, while the
meter is
ticking away for my client. (IF they are bright enough to look at the reports
at all)

Telecine and post will look for the audio they need primarily by TC for the most
part, correct ? Wild trax or ambiences can be sought for by index just fine,
and a busted take / track
properly notated, can be passed up effortlessly. A new ID can be generated by
stopping and restarting with no break in code.... very cool.

On "jittery sets", you'll appreciate that you don't have to roll, really, until
the slate is clapped --- you'll be ten seconds ahead of that when it happens !
When the AD barks, you can call "speed" as fast as he calls "roll", but actually
wait to engage record until the sticks come up.
In a way, the "speed" call can be more of a "ready" announcement to the AD...
finger on the trigger.

BTW, congratulations on making DEVA happen on the upcoming project. You'll love
it... it gives you an edge on the uncontrollable.

MF

When I get a DEVA, I will get the 44.1 sample option, unless by that time it
shows up at 88.2 / 96kHz.
Richard

The majority of music recorded digitally in the studio, at least in this
country, is recorded at a sample rate of 48k (or higher), regardless of the
ultimate delivery system to the public.

JW

Frank:
As Richard Kuschel said, there is indeed a 44.1 sample rate option
available. You can choose from 3 sample rates when you order.

Most people in the U.S. choose the three options of 47.652?/48/48.048
for simple pull up and pull down considerations.

John Coffey

Jeff, the original pioneers also had to take a few arrows too.

I see a lot of new Deva mis-information spewing out there lately. This
argument about 24 bit ready Deva vs. (a should be obsolete) 16 bits
that's still being used today, is not valid at all. I will go back to
my 24 bit position in a minute but first I must note, that in spite of
the 16 vs. 24 bit arguments, Deva has a lot more to offer than just 24
bits. You can simply switch Deva to 16 bit mode if you don't want 24
bits but it still offers the 10 second pre-record built in, 4 tracks,
awesome headphone matrixing, etc... all still good reasons for owning a
Deva.

Another new reason now is that Deva is the only recorder with 23.976
compatibility for 24P HD cameras. Panavision has been giving daily 24P
camera seminars and have been recommending to production sound mixers
that they use a Deva to help make proper 23.976 syncing with 24P cameras
easier.

Many people still use 4-STC Nagras today but no one is buying a new one
and no one is expecting 16 bits to be around much longer either.

For over 3 1/2 years now, Deva has been sitting at the
all-destinations-lead-to-non-linear- crossroad waiting for the audio
world to need it's "new" technology. Now, everyone is trying to play
catch up fast. By the time any new recorders come along, Deva will have
had a 4 year head start! They all better hurry. Remember that there
will still be a beta testing shake out period after the new recorders
come out. So it is very possible that some new recorders won't be in
the mainstream until late 2002 or early 2003 (and that's assuming they
will have no further factory delays).

The 24 vs.16 bit argument is ridiculous because it's going to happen
sooner or later. Like it or not. There is no question about it. Not
if. It will happen!!!! That rocket ship has already taken off and
there is no stopping it now. Pro Tools and many others are now 24 bit
and most manufacturers from Avid on, are now addressing 24 bits
seriously.

24 bits does sound better than 16 bits. If you did an A/B test.... it's
obvious. No question. It really makes the biggest difference when you
compare effects and music although it still enriches dialogue recording
with greater fullness and gives more headroom.

The 2 biggest sound effects libraries in the world, Wylie Statemen's
company and Sound Ideas are already doing their effects recordings on
Devas to preserve them forever in the highest quality.

More Devas are sold today to editors, even more than production sound
mixers. They rent them like crazy too. Last week we rented out 14
Devas in one day and about half were to editors.

Many of the big sound editorial people like Larry Blake and Dane Davis
are gathering their 24 bit sound effects right now on Deva. The
familiarity growing due to post ownership of Devas comes full circle
back to production sound mixers who are now often being asked to use
Devas too by post. This just happened on Matrix II and III when Dane
Davis insisted that Deva be used by the production mixers. Sony and
Disney are also examples of studios asking for Deva.

Music recording has already long gone over to 24 bits original recording
even if inferior downloads, mini-discs and CDs are the final release. I
don't know how they dither or truncate but they do it. Many musicians
like Stevie Wonder and John Tesh have bought Devas recently. Deva was
the only recorder used for live recordings of most of MTV's "Music in
High Places" recent series.

Deva itself is a constantly morphing recorder. It's not married to any
media and has continued to interface well with each new media that has
come along and is ready for the ones to come in the future.

New software is written on demand for it's users group. New beta
testers are tracked by the users group before the software is released
to the public.

Love it or hate it, you have to admit that no one else has come close to
accomplishing what Deva has done for non-linear production sound. It's
place in audio history is secure right next to the DAT and Nagra. Like
Kudulski before him, Glen Sanders deserves a Technical Academy Award
next year.

Deva has come a long way as the non-linear recording and is still the
unchallenged defacto leading standard today and Deva is well prepared to
stand up to any competition that may come along in the years to come.

John Coffey
http//:www.coffeysound.com

The DEVA does not need to be a standard, it just needs to conform to
standards of procedure in the whole train of events. Prior to the use of
non-linear file based recordings, this standard was it had to play back, in
real time and in sync, the audio that it has recorded. The DEVA does, of
course, much more than this, by supporting the 2 most used file formats and
bit rates currently in use.

DVD-RAM is a storage medium with very rigorous formats supported world wide,
and when required to store industry standard audio file formats it is
proving to be quite capable and is, in fact, becoming the standard here in
the U.S.
Bit rate is not specifically related to file format but rather to the
standards established for digital audio recording bit depth. I don't think
it is flaming to suggest that a recording, whether it be made on a Nagra D,
a DAT machined, a DEVA, a SONY 3348, Euphonix R-1, Fairlight Merlin, etc.,
etc., at 24 bits is superior to one made at 16 bits.

>
> But did you deliver a 24 bit dvd copy to postproduction ? Did you make
> 2 DVD's , one 16 and one 24 ? Maybe with a 16 bit backup DAT as a
> avid-tape ?
>>
The only version of the production track was a DVD-RAM disk with SD II 24
bit files; this is what I turned in on the last job.

As I mentioned before, I have done jobs using almost every imaginable
scenario with both DAT and the DEVA. The present job I have just completed
the production work on, I delivered SD II files at 24 bits which will be
used by sound editorial at 24 bits in ProTools, throughout until print
master. The audio that is in the Avid (for the picture editor) has been
loaded digitally directly off the DVD-RAM disk, but at 16-bits which is all
the Avid supports at this time. It will be the decision of the sound
editorial team as to how much, if any, of this 16 bit (inferior to 24 bit)
audio ends up in the movie. Since I personally have the highest respect for
the people doing the post work on this project, and since I personally do
not feel that the differences between the 16 bit version of my work and the
24 bit version of my work is so profound, I am confident that the project
will be completed to everyone's satisfaction.

The various threads in this diverse group encompass all sorts of
discussions. Some may be very specific in regards to file formats supported,
in use in production, in use in post, preferences, problems, etc., and these
should be of interest to you. Other discussions do center more on specific
pieces of equipment and there is nothing wrong with that. The reason why
there are more discussions of file formats AND the DEVA is because there are
more DEVA recorders out there working in production and the people using the
DEVA in production and the post people using the files generated by the
DEVA, need to discuss these things.

I don't remember anybody flaming whilst discussing any particular file
format.

Most "problems" (or the development of viable
procedures) seem to be discovered primarily through use. We can, however,
look into certain specifications and recommended procedures as relates to a
specific piece of gear (Avid, ProTools, WaveFrame, DEVA, Nagra D, DAT, etc.)
to help in advanced making intelligent decisions.

I don't understand the "DVD way was a 16 bit way in the end" as the DVD-RAM
disk is only a storage medium --- what you put on it and how you use it must
be discussed project by project. I personally have done several jobs using
virtually all of the possible methods now available for use of the DEVA as a
production recorder.

If you remember, when I was first using DAT
and had to convince Twentieth Century Fox to do the transfers properly and
not charge the company a premium "because it's digital" it turned out that
the biggest stumbling block was that the sound transfer department had to
submit a requisition to management to have the only DAT machine the studio
owned moved out of the music department and over to film sound transfer,
just to do my dallies.

"Editors do not scream for specific media, they scream for good sound."

Actually, they do specify and they do require many things relating to the
delivery of audio material to their editing room. They would, of course,
also like good sound as you state, but often they are more concerned about
technical issues that will allow the editing room to function smoothly.
Sadly, many of them have given up on the hope for good sound.

"If it's Telecine, Deva, nagra D, DAT, or whatever, how you fill your 2 or 4 tracks is the key."

Not true. What medium you deliver the production tracks to telecine is ALL
IMPORTANT, and must be established, locked in stone, before you even shoot a
foot of film (or video, or whatever). I was required to attend a 2 hour
meeting in pre-production for an HBO Original picture that I did last year,
and almost everything that was discussed with both me and the Director of
Photography related to procedure, media and delivery of daily elements.
About the only comment that was made of a quality or creative issue was made
to my father, the DP, informing him that because HBO has so many release
markets and they have so many different aspect ratios to deal with, it would
be best if his composition of the frame kept everything of importance "right
in the middle" so they wouldn't have any problems. They even supplied him
with a little storyboard, how HBO likes to see things farmed. All of this, I
might add, was being put upon Haskell Wexler, 2-time Academy Award winning
Cinematographer. HBO should have been thrilled that they had a camerman of
his stature on their project.

I had to blaze the DEVA trail with HBO because they were absolutely opposed
to its use because they had never done it before. Their "guidelines" did not
mention any procedures that I was suggesting, procedures that would
ultimately save them time and money and produce a higher quality project. I
had the support of the picture editor, an old friend, and his staff, and we
just spelled it all out. I have heard from various reliable sources that
this post supervisor is now publishing a document, "This is how we do it at
HBO" which outlines the very procedures we used on "61*", the same
procedures she was reluctant to use when I was proposing them.

Regards, Jeff Wexler

Could you imagine this thread in a 'letters to the editor' column. It
would take years.

There are some kinks to work out in transferring DVD-RAM disks into
the Avid, but look at the basics. We are writing standard Mac or
Windows audio files to a standard medium with embedded time code.
While there are complications they are by no means overwhelming.
Editors have already made the big leap from analog film to digital
non-linear editing systems. I'm surprised they weren't screaming for
us field mixers to catch up. I appreciate Frank's discussion of
posting with the Deva but I have no doubt that editors will either
figure out how to use the DVD's (with Zaxcom's help if there are any
'deva' peculiaraties) directly into their systems, or in the
shortterm, if it's faster and cheaper, they'll rent a Deva. I stand
by my belief that the DVD's alone should be usable in all post systems
either now or in the very near future. In the words of the famed AD
Abbie Singer 'What's preventing?'

As for post, there are a few mixers in the US who move back and forth
between production and post, but most end up gravitating to one or the
other. (Face it, after a few winter night location films in bad
neighborhoods who would want to go back into the field?). I've made a
couple of offers to post people before I started projects to come in
with some recorded DVD's and my Deva but they've never taken me up.
Glenn from Zaxcom also goes around to post to help them set up jobs.
It's a pity, I love the editing process and would be happy to spend
more time around it. Most of my post expertese dates back to the days
of mag.

A quick note to Mr Krause. The new DVD-RAM drives are 4.7 gig per
side and 2-3x as fast. While they will work with the Deva (i think
any computer type drive with a SCSI port will work with Deva), they
are currently limited to 2 gigs a side because the Deva still uses a

There are some kinks to work out in transferring DVD-RAM disks into
the Avid, but look at the basics. We are writing standard Mac or
Windows audio files to a standard medium with embedded time code.
While there are complications they are by no means overwhelming.
Editors have already made the big leap from analog film to digital
non-linear editing systems. I'm surprised they weren't screaming for
us field mixers to catch up. I appreciate Frank's discussion of
posting with the Deva but I have no doubt that editors will either
figure out how to use the DVD's (with Zaxcom's help if there are any
'deva' peculiaraties) directly into their systems, or in the
shortterm, if it's faster and cheaper, they'll rent a Deva. I stand
by my belief that the DVD's alone should be usable in all post systems
either now or in the very near future. In the words of the famed AD
Abbie Singer 'What's preventing?'

As for post, there are a few mixers in the US who move back and forth
between production and post, but most end up gravitating to one or the
other. (Face it, after a few winter night location films in bad
neighborhoods who would want to go back into the field?). I've made a
couple of offers to post people before I started projects to come in
with some recorded DVD's and my Deva but they've never taken me up.
Glenn from Zaxcom also goes around to post to help them set up jobs.
It's a pity, I love the editing process and would be happy to spend
more time around it. Most of my post expertese dates back to the days
of mag.

A quick note to Mr Krause. The new DVD-RAM drives are 4.7 gig per
side and 2-3x as fast. While they will work with the Deva (i think
any computer type drive with a SCSI port will work with Deva), they
are currently limited to 2 gigs a side because the Deva still uses a

i forgot something:

my 24fps tc problem i told you about is actually not big deal. i will record
24fps TC on set, so the conversion process is seemless. the avid doesn´t
care if it´s not 25fps. you can edit as usual.
our post production is done on protools so we transfer the sound via omf
(bye, bye 24bit) from the avid. when importing this with digitranslator you
create a 24fps PT-Session. after you have opened the session for the first
time you just chage the session settings to 25fps are of you go posting to
PAL-Video. once in PT you don´t need the correct timestamps anymore because
PT can´t conform anyway on it´s own ;)
so the tc in the DAW it just aruler you see in the timeline. it has nothing
to do with running speed.

if you want to use "post conform" together with PT you can create a
24-bit/24fps session and conform to that session. after thatr you just
switch to 25fps. so even that should be possible.

i don´t know if the other DAWs like fairlight etc. allow this kind of
manipulation of their project files, but i´d be glad to hear more info on
that issue.

i hope all of these issues will be obsolete when avid supports direct
import. by the way: even now you can directly import deva-files into the
avid with a regular SD2 import but you don´t get the timestamps.

another point:

most filmcomposer users still use version 7.2 because the newer version only
have more gadgets for the video guys. (3D fx, online quality etc.), so the
filmeditors actually stick with 7.2 because they never need the feature of
versions higher than 7.2
i don´t think that editors are going to spend 25000$ for an update to get a
direct import feature. for that price they could by allmost 3 devas and have
them sit in the cutiing room ;)

i´m not sure, but i think devalink is about 1000DM (ca. $500) maybe a bit
more. you get 1 authorization with a key-disk.

frank.

well, i thinks my tests where very successfull, because the main problem
(the transfer itself) actually worked in a plug-and-play style.

the other pro0blems that arise are mainly due to the missing featurs of NLEs
that are now (yet) perfectly prepared to handle directly imported media
(sound and image). all the DV guys that import picture via firewire have
exactly that same problem as i did with dvd-ram.

but maybe i have found a sollution anyway :)

my last posting on how to relink deva audio with an off-line sequence in the
avid only sounds complicated. for an avid editor it´s a piece of cake.

frank.

. It is a key reason, but not the only reason to use the
hard drive recorder. My point (which I didn't make clear) was that
before post says that transferring from the DVD is too problematic
they can go out, rent a Deva for a few days, load the audio in and
then figure out how to work with the DVD's in their systems when
they're not under the 'dailies' pressure.

> All these software permutations finally published at Ramps ( thanks )
> are a very important factor for soundmixers i think. These things have
> to be solved , on way or the other.

Of course you are correct. It is more common for European mixers to
also work in post. Unfortunately it is rare here in the states so not
many of us have access to post systems to help work out these kinks.

One point though. When I first purchased the Deva I bought a cheap
DVD-RAM drive for my 3 year old PC clone. I added a 24 bit sound card
and downloaded 'Cool Edit' for $50. With this set up I can read any
Deva/DVD audio files, 16 and 24 bit, SD2 or BWF. If I can read it
with such a bare-bones system then it should not be too difficult to
read the audio files with a professional posts system.

Billy Sarokin

It's amazing that change ever happens in our so-called "professional"
audio industry! If you remember, a few years ago on ramps, naysayers
were saying that the Deva would never work as a reliable field recorder.
Now naysayers say why use it, if 24 bits are not the accepted standard
format yet. They don't want to be the one's to affect change.

Many say, "why change?".

Others who say "why not?".

Just as I felt for the Kudulski's of the world over 30 year ago, my
deepest respect now goes to todays guys like Jeff Wexler, Peter Devlin,
Frank Kruse, John Brawley, John Pritchett, Bob Gravenor, John Garrett,
Billy Sorokin, Dave Schaff, Paul Brincat, Efd Novick, Willie Burton, Joe
Foglia, Scott Smith, Mike Hall, Mike Filosa, Steve Morrow, Darren
Brisker, Brian Simmons, Simon Bishop, Glen Berkovitch, Randy Thom,
Matthew Price, Wiley Statemen, Larry Blake, Dane Davis, Chris Price,
Rick Cannata, Glen Sanders and many others for leading the naysayers
kicking and screaming into the future.

The audio pioneers have always led the rest of the industry. It's not
about the gear. For them, it's about better audio.

They don't settle for the mediocre when progress to the next level is
being held back by short sightedness. These pioneers believe that
"resistance is futile".
Who were the first brave Nagra IV STC users? Who were the first DAT
users? Who were the first (not the last) Nagra D users?

It's always the same leaders. They do the hand-holding and this time
they are taking everyone again into the next, 24 bit, non-linear audio
age. When the dust settles, we'll wonder why it took so long. Of
course, the pioneers will already be off onto the next good thing by
then.

John Coffey

"The only reason to go to Hard disk is to bypass the expensive Hardware
in Post IMO, at least, thats what i have read from you Deva people":

This is hardly the only reason to go "hard disk" for the production
recording, and as a DEVA user I have never suggested that this is the
primary reason to use the DEVA, to "bypass the expensive hardware" in post.
The fact of the matter, and history shows this, the use of the Nagra at
first required hardware expenditures in post, then the Nagra 4 STC required
new hardware, and the use of the Nagra D necessitated very expensive
hardware... If post houses had to purchase or rent a DEVA it would be less
of an expense than almost any of the other scenarios we have gone through.

The big difference, with any non-linear file based recorder, is that there
is the possibility of utilizing our sound much more directly than ever
before, but it will require that everyone get their act together, Avid, Pro
Tools, etc.

JW

our production sound was recorded straight onto a hard disk, don'tcha know? With the current assembly edit of the movie at over five hours, it would be a bit of an understatement to say that there are a lot of rushes on 24 Hour Party People. Director Michael Winterbottom's unique directing style - little set up time, using available light where possible, lots of digital cameras, makes for a fast-paced shoot. However this could have been a complete nightmare for the sound department. "The look of it is documentary style, but if the sound was documentary style, then people would lose patience with it!" says Sound Recordist Stuart Wilson. The immediate pressure of shooting picture rapidly on one hand, but requiring cinematic quality, perfectly balanced sound, on the other, made for an intense shoot. "I would generally get there two hours before the start of the shooting day, to start setting up", explains Stuart, "But having said that, it didn't matter how early I got there, there would never be enough time!"

Fast recording on the hoof called for a new system that could cope with the pace. For 24 Hour Party People, Stuart used an innovative recording machine called Deva II. It is a four track recorder that records the sound directly onto a built-in hard disk. The sound can then be backed up onto a jaz drive, or, as in this case, a DVD RAM drive. The DVD disk is then taken to the edit suite, and the sound can be re-recorded on the hard disk. "It's battery-operated and portable and mobile and it records higher quality than a DAT" says Stuart. "It's got four tracks and I thought it would be good for the way Michael wanted to work, because he likes to have everybody on radio mikes all the time. I like to have a boom up as well, if possible, to add to the sound of the radios, and just mix them together to get a more natural sound."

The Deva cuts out the need to have rushes sent off to a transfer house to be synched up with the picture. At the end of the day, the DVD disk goes straight to the edit suite, where it was imported directly into the Avid Editing System. This was particularly useful, as no clapperboard was used during the shoot. Director Michael Winterbottom felt the clapperboard was an artifical convention that told the actors when and when not to start performing, preferring instead to let them improvise and catch them at it. The Deva machine helped out with this also: "The other great advantage of it is that you can set the machine to be recording into a buffer, so that it's constantly listening, and when you hit record, it will put the ten seconds before you hit record onto the disk"

Despite some of the latest technology to hand, the sound department still had their work cut out. On one of the most intense days, shooting the 'Happy Mondays' at a live gig, requirements included pre-recorded music play back through the PA, play back going into different earpieces for the band (so that the music could be turned down to record dialogue at the bar), then radio mikes for the characters at the bar, then recording the vocals live - with the band all on radio mikes. Not to mention a couple of additional actors in the audience, on radio mikes. "On a normal film, that would probably be about the end of the day's work" says Stuart. "It was a big set up and it had been a lot of work, and you'd hope for a break after that." But instead the crew dashed upstairs to film 'Joy Division' and some other bands on stage, all requiring music playback and radio mikes again. "We just had to kind of run with it and do what we could, do it as fast as we could" he recalls. "They just have to wait if they were ready. I know that Michael would shoot some stuff during those times, without sound."

The Deva recorder itself is a far cry from traditional sound recording practices, that of recording directly onto spools of magnetic tape ('Nagra') or DAT. "I've always been a DAT man" insists Stuart. "I used Nagras in the early days but I've been using DAT for ten years - ever since I got my first one in Japan when I went over there, and didn't really feel the need to use Nagra again. It's pretty bulky as well, and having to change tapes when you're shooting a busy schedule is always a bit inconvenient, you're always wondering if you're going to run out before the next take or if you can afford to take the time to reload before the next one."

Luckily, Michael is not afraid of trying new technologies or shooting practices - in fact, he usually embraces it. "It's great in many ways because it enabled me to try out things that I wanted to try out." says Stuart. "Michael comes up with a problem or something that he wants to do, then we have to come up with the solution, using the available technology." Now that he has tried out the Deva system, he plans to use it on other productions too. "The next production I'm doing is in monsoon, high humidity Thailand. Because you're recording on a field disk, you don't get the problems of damp that get with DAT recorders, so I think I'll try and take that out."

Stuart would be the subject of teasing on set, with Michael noting the massive amount of equipment Stuart would have to carry around with him, compared to the relative lightness of the smaller DVCams. "That's not really a valid comparison, because it's got more to do with the nature of image and the nature of sound, I would say" smiles Stuart. "I think we'll have a load of equipment for a while to come!"

John,

I think in this day and age of field recorders, there will be no "anybody"
killers as you mentioned. It will simply be a matter of personal choice,
providing we all make machines that can speak to each other. I want to
stress to all that you and I will certainly do some compatibility beta
testing between the DEVA and the Fostex unit. I mentioned this to Dan O'
Grady at Nagra as well.

We too did not have success with the ORB drive a couple of years back, so
we investigated and went with DVD. The reason why the Fostex box is taking
awhile to show itself is due to the stringent testing we are doing with the
manufacturer of the drive.
THis includes all environments and shake tests. I say this because I read
Jeff Wexlers comment the other day.

BWF, SD 2 and OMF are the key to compatibility!

Rest assured John you and I will be talking and testing (and doing lunch)!
Rick

I'm still in favor of the Hard Drive mirrored to DVD system, as has evolved
with the Deva, for the following reasons:

I am not aware of any failures of a DVD-RAM disk that happened after the
disk was mirrored. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that, to my
knowledge, it hasn't ever happened. On the other hand, I do know of at least
a couple of instances of hard drive failures that occurred even after the
recording was successfully made and played back. A hard drive has
electronics and moving parts, and it has been proven possible that the
original recording can be forever lost at any time.

DVD-RAM is a much better choice of archival media than hard drive. It is
about 30x cheaper than a hard drive (even 4x cheaper than the Orb) and takes
up less shelf space. Granted, copies can be made for archival at any time,
but with the DVD-RAM, it is already done.

Back up. With the larger hard drives now available for Deva (up to 25G) the
"mirror-to-DVD RAM" system allows us to keep up to 6 days of backup at all
times on the internal hard drive (Deva uses 4g partitions, almost always
enough for a day's work). This is a far superior safety net than any system
has offered us before.

Rolling two DAT machines and keeping a copy for backup may be OK, and has
saved the day in a number of instances, but I know of at least as many
occasions where the use of two DAT machines was the cause of problems.
Maintaining, feeding, rolling, and monitoring two machines of questionable
reliability creates a distraction that wouldn't exist with just one machine,
increasing the chance of operator error. With airplanes, the first
assumption is that two engines are twice as safe as one. But multi-engine
pilots are trained to know that, in actuality, if you have two engines then
you are twice as likely to have an engine failure; always a dangerous
situation. The same could be said for rolling two recorders. Granted, the
Deva and the DVD-RAM drive are two separate units, but they function much
more like a single machine than do two separate recorders.

It is probably worth commenting, at this point, that the Castlewood ORB
drive has had an abysmal reliability record. ORB horror stories abound.
Take a look in the Google archives of comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage for
a great deal of traffic concerning the ORB drives. Apparently the media are
frought with reliability problems which result in completely unanticipated
losses of data. Not good. While the Castlewood people, who migrated from
IOmega, are hopefully capable of solving the problems, I don't know that
they have yet. Be skeptical. The Nagra folks may have been deceived.

--
John Gilman
zoundz@newscene.com

I've been watching the
Deva trek over the years and trying to find some justification to buy one...
and couldn't. Every time I inquired with post folks outside of the feature
world the attitude was, "why change?"

Now...Finally... with the apparent direct file compatibility with Avid that
may all change in a hurry. The ability to hand post a DVD or whatever
straight from the Deva without them needing to do anything but shove it into
their drive will open a lot of doors previously closed.

Imagine the ability to finally be able to justify double system on Network
TV. (by that I mean one that is portable and 4 tracks... not boat anchors)

In the reality TV world this could be the ticket we've been looking for to
push highend sound back into our lives. The key here is 4 tracks and a no
brainier DVD.

Yes Sirree, this is indeed an interesting time. As the new versions of Avid
begin to proliferate the market even the lowest level show will be able to
handle Deva tracks. The only additional cost to them will be our rental and
stock. A small price to pay to so enhance their product.

Of course there are plenty of issues that would need to be resolved because
we couldn't mirror with a DVD while jumping through a window on fire but the
foundation has been laid.

Just dreaming out loud!

From: "Mr Simmons" <soundcan@clara.co.uk>
Subject: Greetings!

Hello! All,

Returned from Berlin just a couple of days before Christmas,having been there on a movie since early October. Having missed my chance at Christmas Greetings! may I take this opportunity to wish all members of the Group the very best for 2001 - and may our numbers increase!

Having just completed my second movie using the Cameo/Deva/DVD I have little to report except that the system performed faultlessly, and that I never encountered a situation that
couldn't be handled quickly and logically by the facilities provided by the set-up. That said,
I am sure I never needed to call upon all of the facilities,but it is comforting to know that they are there. I could take a paragraph to be fulsome in my praise - but it is enough to acknowledge that Cameo and Deva are GREAT! - I am completely at ease with the system, it works, it is flexible,etc.etc... and I can't believe that Mixers aren't breaking down the doors of you Equipment suppliers to get at the stuff!
Keith - I'll be in soon for updates,and may be you could look at that hardware fix for the Deva display brightness - the only thing that irritated me.If only it were possible to call it up on the Cameo display.

regards,

Brian S.

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001
From: coffeyman@webtv.net

FYI: An update off the top of my head about what Glenn Sanders is up to
this week.....

We had the producers of the #6 rated U.S. TV show called "CSI" request
to go Deva.

We had nagging problem using DVD between telecine and the set and
couldn't seem to solve it so Glenn dropped what he was doing and jumped
a red-eye to Los Angeles to get involved firsthand.

Today went very well and the producers even offered to do any
advertising for Deva by using their show as a flagship.
The editors will be the first to use the new Failight software.

Glenn also visited Sony Studios who are huge Deva supporters. They just
purchased their 5th Deva and next month will have 3 different major
features shooting with Devas at the same time!

He just saw Willie Burton on David Fitchner's set moments ago and will
visit the sets of JAG w/Sean Rush, 'Vanilla Sky' Cameron Crowe's new
feature with Jeff Wexler and Bob Gravenor who works with the FIRST major
commercial production house to go Deva.

He will visit at least 10 post houses including Rushes, Sony, Disney,
Todd A-O, 4MC, Laser Pcific and several mixers including Rob Janiger
and Mark Ulano ('Titanic') who are both considering a Deva purchase for
their upcoming shows before flying back to New Jersey.

...now that's customer service!

John Coffey

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001
From: coffeyman@webtv.net

Do you all know that our group member, Randy Thom, has been nominated
for an Academy Award for "CASTAWAY"?

Randy used his Deva to record ALL the efx which on this job.....which
was everything you hear on the island, as none of the production track
was used there.

More congratulations are also in order to Jeff Wexler for his British
Academy Award nomination for "ALMOST FAMOUS".

Glenn's whirlwind LA tour was excellent and we barged in quite a few
doors to watch works in progress. Del Spiva ("PEARL HARBOR") at Disney
was one of them.

Del has done some unique post work with the Deav tracks and it would be
cool if he expounded on that more here for more edfication to this group
on the entire process....Del?

Glenn had an excellent talk with Dane Davis (last year's Academy Award
winner for "MATRIX"). Dane owns 2 Devas and used them extensively on
"RED PLANET" and wrote an article about how Deva was used on that film
in last months Audio Media Magazine.

Dane is pushing hard for Deva to be used as the primary recorder for the
upcoming "MATRIX II and III" which will be shot together. David Lee is
the Australian production mixer.

Glenn had great talks with Sony Studios who is fast becoming a huge Deva
proponent. Next month, all 3 films starting will use Devas. Post has
several Devas and are even transferring the Nagra D tracks coming in
from "ALI" onto Deva before working with them.

It's really becoming a Deva world. I'm certain that once Avids take
Deva files, hopefully very soon...the floodgates will open.

John Coffey

Sadly, the Nagra, although a beautiful piece of machinery, wasn't, and isn't,
the failure-proof dream machine we all are nostalgic about. I had a couple of
mechanical failures, and who didn't experience the occasional reel jamming on
the lid and spooling tape inside. But our standards were adjusted to the idea
of fine machinery needing periodic adjustment, oiling and service, or there
would be occasional failure.
The DAT machines also worked flawlessly in their own way. I recorded over a
dozen features on my DAT recorder, and only had one tape jam, and a couple of
'dew' indications slowing down production.
My Deva, on the other hand, has a myriad of bizarre software bugs and some
connector issues, but has NEVER failed to make a great usable recording. Also,
Glenn Sanders and Howy Stark may sometimes move a little slowly, but they have
been receptive to new ideas and have made continual, significant upgrades to
the operation of the machine, and so far its all been done for free. I can't
think of a single other piece of gear I can say that about. Besides, what
problem with a DAT or Nagra was ever solved just by turning it off and then
back on?
As to carts rolling down the hill, I think we had all better do our best to
keep that from happening. But as far as digital equipment is concerned, should
the Deva take a serious fall, it could be completely destroyed as could any
other gear, including a Nagra. But I feel certain it won't be jostled out of
alignment, or have a bent gear, or have dirt seize up a pulley. And if its only
moving part, the hard disk, should be damaged, I carry several spares, at
little cost. The media risked in such an accident is actually less fragile in
many ways than an open reel tape or a close-tolerance DAT cassette, and you
lose no more material.
All this being said, I also want a perfectly reliable device that can resist
obsolescence. Software driven technology has this potential. And as more
manufacturers move into this area, and more of us adopt the technology, it will
vastly improve in short order.
Besides, other departments are having to work through this as well. On my last
show, we had a brief delay because of a software issue with the film camera.
Peter

The Deva is very mature. The internal hard drive does record a proprietary
format for one reason alone. Reliability. The Deva hard drive is 100% error
free and has a triple redundant directory structure. Once audio is recorded
it is very safe. The Deva can even play back the files after the Disk has
been erased. The directory can even be rebuilt from the audio data on the
disk. Files can be output in SD2 (protools) or Broadcast Wave (AVID/
everything else). Deva is proven on films like Star wars, Almost famous,
Pearl Harbor, and many more. Deva's ability to deliver perfectly transparent
audio that is inherently safe under all recording conditions is what we have
strived for.
We now offer studio Deva which will play our internal Disk as well as our
DVD-RAM Disk for post.
Just a comment to about price. Our Deva at $9950 list will cost less to you
in the long run as it is a Zero maintenance recorder. Any recorder that has a
built in removable media will not be able to make this claim. And of course
our Deva is available today.

From what I can tell it we are on the cusp of a new era. However I want
>> gear that is reliable, easy to fix, and won't be outdated in 5 months. From
>> what I'm reading this is not the case in the "digital" era.

Jeff Wexler comments:
I agree with almost everything Peter K. has to say here in response to
"digital dilemma" (if there even is such a thing) and I concur with Peter as
well regarding the reliability of the DEVA (which is almost entirely
software driven). Most of the new digital gear that is software driven,
derives a degree of reliability directly proportional to the efforts put in
by the manufacturer to develop reliable and intelligently coded software,
which is exactly what Zaxcom has done with the DEVA. Other manufacturers,
wanting to take a little shortcut, have not fared so well.

Windows and most computers are about as reliable as my wife's
>> old Chevrolet. They both work most of the time, but now and again she has to
>> take the bus. From my experience I assume that all-digital gear screws up on
>> a semi regular basis, at a much higher rate that analog gear.

This is just not true. First of all, you must compare analog based, hardware
intensive equipment of similar capabilities to the digital gear and then
reach a conclusion. Obviously, the old Chevrolet with a manual gearbox, no
power windows, etc., is going to be more reliable than a brand new software
intensive automobile of the future running Microsoft Windows CE presiding
over the levels your satellite based internet receiver plays the latest MP3
pop song.

>One mixer, I worked boom for, had a Nagra roll
>> down a long hill on its edge, picking up speed as it went. (It was bouncing
>> and in record with the mic cable attached) He told me the machine recorded
>> its' little trip flawlessly. Can the Deva, Nagra V, Fostex, TCR etc., do
>> the same thing and go back to work?

Certainly it has been my experience that the DEVA is far more rugged and
able to withstand massive shaking, shock and movement in a variety of
environmental conditions, than any other recording device I have ever used.
>>
>> I'd also like to know that I can trust the companies we buy from that their
>> architecture is open so that we can always update, and upgrade, and not have
>> to throw a piece of gear out every 4 years. (like I presently do with
>> computers) I have no problem with digital in a studio, mounted in a rack,
>> out of the rain and snow, never moving, but on the road is it wise? Or are
>> we just not there yet?

We are definitely there, today, with the DEVA and possibly other devices I
have less familiarity with. I do miss the rugged, reliable Nagra recorder
tghat has served us so well for many, many years, but I fully realize that
the Nagra was a much simpler device for much simpler times, and there is
very little chanced we will ever return to that sort of technology.

I dont think that Deva will be a rare thing after a few years it is a very
good piece of hardware. I once was able to test it here in the UK and at one
point put it into record and played catch with it for a couple of minutes
and the thing still worked perfectly!

One thing that may be of use to you is a program called AVtransfer

Taken from a AVtransfer brochure:

"Deva II is unable to handle format conversion or variable pull up/down
rates. Thats where AVtransfer can help. It can read the Deva II recordings
and process the audio data into any desired format. It is our understanding
that Deva II is able to handle a fixed pull-up or pull-down rate. The
setting is fixed. AVtransfer can "undo" this and then reapply the correct
pull.

AVtransfer reads and displays all the fields entered into a Deva II while
recording, including scene, take numbers, reel ID's
AVtransfer allows you to audition multiple takes and mark in and out points.
Only selected takes need to be transferred, and optionally only the mark-in
to mark-out points.
AVtransfer can sample rate convert, if the wrong sample wasused during
recording.
AVtransfer can bit rate convert thus allowing the Deva II to be set to its
highest possible quality (24-bit) yet still generate 16-bit files for gear
that can only support 16-bit (e.g. Avid Media Composer).
AVtransfer can run on a laptop"

Avtransfer can read and write to OMF 1, OMF 2, Broadcast Wav, Wav, AIFF,
AIFF(C) DSP AudiOS files.
AVtransfer can also read Discreet* Edit* EDL's

DSP Media who wrote the AVtransfer program and have teamed up with Zaxcom
the makers of Deva and have tested and written the software to ensure that
it works with Deva.

Hope that helps

I agree John, Whatever formats there are and will be, as long as they speak
to each other, your in good shape. I know this is our goal and Glenn's
goal. I believe Nagra agrees to this too! It is time for new technology
guys, and soon, you will the choice as to what suits you.

As to John Coffey's credit, I never saw a guy work so hard to get mixers
and post houses up to speed…As for the dealers such as… Coffey… are not
box houses and will be able to aid in the transition that is forth coming. They can and will answer your questions …the retailers have direct access to me (for Fostex issues) and principals from
their other lines to smooth the transition. Remember when the 4S-TC first
hit the streets!!!!

While the more that companies come into this foray add up to more
competition for us all, it is the end user who will benefit. The non linear
format is here to stay and you have a dedicated group to baby-sit you in
the transitional period. AS I believe John stated, it simply reinforces
that this is the future of location recording. I personally love analog
reels turning, but the times they are a changing!!!
Rick

IA Local 481 DEVA Seminar 4 Oct 00
Some months ago we decided it would be a good thing to invite some -knowledgeable people to do a show-and-tell here in Boston, to raise awareness among production and postproduction mixers about the capabilities of the recorder and encourage both groups to consider the sort of technology that will soon be the main way in which recordings for film and television are done. With that in mind, we invited Glenn Sanders, developer of the DEVA and owner of, Michael Filosa, a production sound mixer and DEVA owner from Atlanta, and Greg Compagnone from

to show us the latest toys. We had about 10 people there, mostly production mixers and boom operators, a post production mixer and a broadcast/live music engineer. Glenn provided a thorough overview of the DEVA recorder and the

mixing desk, Michael talked about day-to-day operation and how clients and post are being introduced to nonlinear field recording…

AVtransfer can now read broadcast wave files produced by Deva II,
> >including embedded data (timecode, slate, scene ID etc.).
> >
> >http://www.avtransfer.com
> >
> >Only a few hundred dollars more then Digitranslator but ten times the
> >value.
>
> List price is 1000 dollar...Isn't the next Avid update able do do this
> ( according to the Zaxcom publication ) BWF transfer also ?..

Yes but audio post finishing is rarely done in an Avid, at least
nothing I work on. Also Avid will truncate the 24 bit (really 20 bit)
BWF to 16 bits.

Roland